Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

by JCISGOD98 117 Replies latest watchtower bible

JCISGOD98

I asked a JW last week the following question, "Is Revelation 5:11-14 a worship act to the Lamb or an act of obeisance?
Revelation 5:11-14 NWT states “And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: ‘The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.’ And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: ‘To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever’ And the four living creatures went saying: ‘Amen!’ and the elders fell down and worshiped.”
He responded, "this is obeisance and not worshiping the Lamb." Then I responded, "if that is so, then why don't you Jehovah's Witnesses do this act of obeisance in your Kingdom Hall if the whole world in Rev 5:11-14 is doing it including creatures in heaven, earth, under earth and on the sea? Also, the four living creatures said AMEN! What is that all about? I thought AMEN is used at the end of a prayer or praise of glory. I know why you Jehovah's Witnesses don't do it? You want to know why you don't do it? Because it's an act of worship and it is not allow in your Kingdom Hall. I've been to your Kingdom Halls and you don't even do an act of obeisance to Jesus if this is in fact an act of obeisance."
It's been weeks that he said he was going to do research and would return.
Should I go to my local Kingdom Hall and scream out during their worship service and say "Yo Frank, what's up with Rev 5:11-14? You didn't get back to me man. That's not cool. You promised me we were going to finish our study on the Person of Jesus Christ. Where are your elders? I want to talk to them!" LOL!
You think that is over the top going to the Kingdom Hall putting him on the spot or should I just wait some more and he might show up at my house again?
NCC-1701

Hey JCISGOD98
I think if you want him to seriously consider your argument for Jesus' worship, calling him to task in the Kingdom Hall would not be the thing to do as it would play more into their hands than yours. Putting someone on the defensive in such a public manner would generally have the effect of shutting off anything you would have to say, no matter how well meaning you are.
Just my thoughts on it.
GOrwell

They can't say it's worship, cause they feel Jesus shouldn't be worshipped. And yet they can't say it's obeisance, because that would be an offense to the One who's sitting on the throne, who's mentioned in the same breath, as if he doesn't deserve to receive the worship. The Apostle John really got em in these verses ;)
godrulz

The same word is used for worship of Jehovah and Jesus. The only reason the sectarian NWT puts obeisance is because of their denial of the Deity of Christ, not because it is the right translation of the Greek word.
Jehovah tells God's angels to worship Jesus in Heb. 1:6 (a verse about worship of Jehovah from LXX Deut. is applied to Jesus to show Jesus' superiority over angels as their Creator, excluding Him from being part of creation Col. 1:16; Jn. 1:3).
Those who worship Jesus are Christians. Those who don't are cultic Arians.
Wonderment

godrulz:
Proskyneo = (fall down and ) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully. (Shorter Lexicon of the Greek NT) Proskyneo basically means "towards to kiss." (pros) and (kyneo). It can be rendered "worship" when the object is God, or, it can be rendered as "do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before someone (a superior, a human)," etc. Thus, it is up to the translator to choose which one to use. If the translator thinks Jesus is subordinate to God, he will choose "do obeisance to," and if he thinks Jesus is identical to God, he will likely choose "worship." Not all will choose "worship", see list below, some of these translators are trinitarians, but they acknowledge the basic sense of the Greek word. It is not fair to the NW translators to accuse them of being sectarian. It is a matter of translator's understanding of bible context, and not due to "evil intentions" for translators to prefer one reading over the other.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : “In the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance , whether in order to express respect or to make supplication.”

“ And let them bow before him --all messengers of God” ( Young's Literal Translation)
“ And let all the angels of God pay him homage” (George R. Noyes New Testament)
“ And let do obeisance to him all angels of God” ( The Apostolic Bible Polyglot)
“ and let all God's angels do him reverence ” (The Bible in Living English , by Steven T. Byington)
“ And let all the angels of God bow down to him ” ( Riverside New Testament , William G. Ballantine)
“ Dénle homenaje [ Give him homage ] todos los ángeles de Dios [all angels of God] ” (Pablo Besson)
“ Let all the angels of God bow down before him ” ( Twentieth Century New Testament)
“ And let all God's angels bow before him ” ( Edgar J. Goodspeed New Testament)
“ Et que tous les anges de Dieu lui rendent hommage [And let all angels of God pay him homage ] ”
(French Darby Bible)
“ And let all God's angels pay him homage” (The Authentic New Testament , by Hugh J. Schonfield)
“ Before him shall bow all messengers of God” (Andy Gaus New Testament)
“ Let all God's angels pay him homage ” ( Revised English Bible)
“ And may all the angels pay homage to him” (Heinz W. Cassirer's New Testament)
“ Let all the angels of God pay him homage ” ( New Jerusalem Bible)
The very first chapter of Hebrews depicts Christ as a Son, not God, who sat at the right hand of the Majesty (God). It says "he has become better than the angels," but never that he was God. Verse 9 shows God as the speaker saying to Christ: "That is why God, your God, anointed you..."
Col. 1:16 and John 1:3 does not indicate the Jesus was the Source of Creation. The Greek shows it was "through" Christ that God created everything else. Col. 1:15 tells us Christ was the "firstborn of all creation." In the bible, "firstborn" is always a creature. The term is never applied to God or the holy spirit.
Rev. 3:14 says: "This is what the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the one who is in the origin of things created by God." (Biblia de América) This translation has been approved by various Episcopalian dioceses in Central and South America.
By the way, Christ himself said on the subject of divorce, that "from the beginning of creation He [God] made them male and female..." (Mark 10:6) And to the Devil testing Jesus, he quoted from the Old Testament that "It is the Lord [Jehovah] your God you must worship..." He did not say to the Devil: "It is me you should worship.
Christ gave the credit to God for the creation of Adam and Eve, and told everyone else to worship God. (John 20:17) Was Jesus a "cultic Arian"?
Thus, it appears that trinitarians are the ones misapplying Scripture. Just because we avoid the Witnesses' tactics, does not mean that the Trinity must be a bible teaching.
"Do obeisance to..." is as good translation from the Greek as "worship" is. Take your pick, but don't accuse others of being "sectarian," when there is no need to.
PSacramento

It is quite clear that John applies worship to the Lamb, just as he does to God, just as the mislead ones worship the beat and Satan.
It is the some context and John starts it off by applying the term to God and as such, for the sake of textual consistency, it must be applied that way when used afterwards.
He could have chosen other words if he wanted to, but he didn't.
Textual cricitisim teaches us that HOW a word is used by the author FIRST is how it should be used after, to keep the consistency.
The fact that Christ was worshiped has NOTHINg to do with the "trinity" or anything else liek that, it has to do with Christ being the Son of God and worthy of worship, as God is.
EntirelyPossible

You know, every since godrulz joined, every thread he posts in seems to devolve into "you people aren't true christians if you don't agree with me" and the Jesus equivalent of star wars fan boys arguing on exactly what Han meant when he said the Falcon was fast and made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs.
bob1999

To me, it's easy for a discussion with JW's to turn into "you people aren't true christians".
Consider that the WTS teaches that only the 144000 are part of the New Covenant.
So to a JW only the 144000 are Christians, if we use the Bible to define "Christian".
Peace
designs

You're worried about it Why?

AnnOMaly

Proskuneo is properly given to anyone deemed to be of higher status - that includes important men, angels, the Son of God, as well as the Father Himself.

A good example is seen in the LXX version of 1 Chron. 29:20 where both God and the (human) king were 'proskuneo-ed':

From studylight.org:

The King James Version (Authorized)

Book of 1 Chronicles
Chapter 29 Read This Chapter
29:20 [ Greek Font Size: - / + \| Toggle Font ] [ View in: BHS ] And David said (8799) to all the congregation, Now bless (8761) the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed (8762) the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads (8799) , and worshipped (8691) the LORD, and the king. kai eipen Dauid pash th ekklhsia euloghsate kurion ton qeon umwn kai euloghsen pasa h ekklhsia kurion ton qeon twn paterwn autwn kai kamyantev ta gonata prosekunhsan tw kuriw kai tw basilei

The issue is how proskuneo is rendered into modern English and whether it should be rendered 'worship' with regard to beings other than the Almighty God. But whether it's 'homage,' 'obeisance' or 'worship,' it comes from the same single Greek word.

Brenton puts the verse this way:

29:20 And David said to the whole congregation, Bless ye the Lord our God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and they bowed the knee and worshipped the Lord, and [did obeisance] to the king.

Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?

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