Who is McGrath? Is he a conservative Christian, biblical scholar, a liberal pseudo-scholar, a cultist?
Judge for yourself - http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/cv.htm
Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?
by JCISGOD98 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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AnnOMaly
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slimboyfat
He's got a good blog too, where he battles creationists on the one hand and Jesus mythicists on the other.
http://www.patheos.com/community/exploringourmatrix/
Larry Hurtado's blog is pretty good too for that matter.
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PSacramento
Is there any reason why Jesus should receive the highest form of worship, "sacred service" from believers when Jesus himself says that belongs to God alone in Luke 4?
Are you referring to Christ's conversation with Satan?
I think I didn't make my point clear, sorry.
Why was God worshipped? and are any of those reasons NOT applicable to Christ?
Outside of being worshipped as our Beloved father, no, there is no reason to NOT worship Christ as we worship God.
As Jesus stated, Honour the Son and you Honour the Father, honour the Father and you hnour the Son.
Jesus was worthy of worship, he forgave sins, the universe was created through him, His is the WORD of God, the exact image of God and on top of that, he died for Us as only the Son of God could.
When John tried to offer worship to the angels, he was rebuked, but never did Christ rebuke his followers from offering worship to him.
Nor did the Lamb ( Christ) rebuke anyone that offered worship to Him.
The issue is, would the 1st century apostles have worshipped Christ and the answer is, why wouldn't they?
Thomas for one, certaibly did and he was NOT rebuked.
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ProdigalSon
We must really study the Greek words really hard to really understand what the Catholic Church really wanted us to believe...... really!
Or.... its a metaphor for the triumph of the Christ within you..... then all of a sudden its really just semantics... really!
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slimboyfat
Why was God worshipped? and are any of those reasons NOT applicable to Christ?
Yes, one very good reason is that Jesus said that God alone is to be given sacred service.
Outside of being worshipped as our Beloved father, no, there is no reason to NOT worship Christ as we worship God.
The gospel says that the purpose of honouring the Son is that in so doing one honours the Father.
Jesus was worthy of worship, he forgave sins, the universe was created through him, His is the WORD of God, the exact image of God and on top of that, he died for Us as only the Son of God could.
Jesus could forgive sins because his Father gave him the authority to forgive sins. The world was created by God through his Son. Jesus is the exact image of God, not God himself. Jesus died whereas God can never die.
When John tried to offer worship to the angels, he was rebuked, but never did Christ rebuke his followers from offering worship to him.
Yet in the same book the saints are described as receiving "worship". Whatever point the author of Revelation was making with regard to the angel he was apparently not saying that no one beside God could receive "worship" in any circumstance.
Nor did the Lamb ( Christ) rebuke anyone that offered worship to Him.
Neither are the saints said to refuse "worship" in Revelation.
The issue is, would the 1st century apostles have worshipped Christ and the answer is, why wouldn't they?
Because they well understood the difference between God's agent and God himself in the Jewish monotheistic tradition?
Thomas for one, certaibly did and he was NOT rebuked.
The gospel of John clearly calls Jesus divine but it is also a deeply subordinationist text. That is at heart the problem, but the Trinity deals with that tension within the text by suppressing one of its elements.
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godrulz
Since when is James Dunn one of the most respected NT scholars around?! Is he trinitarian or not? He is part of the new perspectives on Paul, but that does not make him right about everything he says? There are many more scholars that will explicitly defend the trinity, Deity, worship of Christ, etc.
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PSacramento
slimboyfay,
EXCELLENT points !
I am not a trinitarian so this is not a "trinity issue" for me.
I think that,taking all the readings into account, there seems to be a greater "Jesus is God" understanding AFTER the ressurection, Paul certaibly hints at it and NO JEW woudl speak about a man/angel/being like Paul spoke about Christ.
I think that for the Jews it took more time to get to that revelation, but the gentiles took far less understanding since they weren't "hampered" by OT view points.
That is why in John there is more Christological understanding.
I think that the divinity thing is still a hard thing to grasp for most, I mean, human man understanding God's nature and how it is revealed to us is quite the challenge since we habe a hard time understanding our OWN.
Do I believe Christ was worshipped?
yes.
Worshipped like GOD?
No, he was worshipped like the Son of God, the living WORD of God, the embodiment of God.
Was he deserving of worship? yes, 100%.
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godrulz
The angels forbid John from worshipping them. They said to worship God alone because He alone is inherently worthy. If Jesus is subordinate creature, it would be blasphemy and idolatry to worship Him. The fact that God commands angels to worship Him and Jesus received worship is proof of His equality with the Father and Deity.
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AnnOMaly
The angels forbid John from worshipping them. They said to worship God alone because He alone is inherently worthy.
In both cases, the reason the angel gives is because he saw himself as the same status as John and therefore felt it inappropriate that John 'proskuneo' him.
(Revelation 19:10) . . .At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: "Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying."
(Revelation 22:9) . . .But he tells me: "Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God."
Exactly the same situation with Peter and Cornelius:
(Acts 10:25-26) . . .As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance to him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: "Rise; I myself am also a man."
Both Jesus and God are of higher status than us, therefore it is entirely right to 'proskuneo' them - however you want to word that in English.
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godrulz
Be blessed (I don't know how JWs can stand their canned, dead muzak about theocracy, not Jesus)?
LOVE How He loves us! How beautiful He is! Hold on to your hats at 6:15 ff. His presence, His love is so thick, tangible...some have not encountered the love of God...amazing love...we are never the same....brace yourself because He is going to blow in this place and we are going to encounter the love of God....love encounter...going deep.
When people were in the presence of God in the Bible (or when Jesus revealed His glory as the I AM), men were blown away and fell as though dead. When I go to JW meetings, I fall asleep from boredom and sense oppression, not anointing.