by JCISGOD98 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
WHich does bring us to the issue of Rev 22:3 -
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.
Here service is implied to the sigular throne of God AND the Lamb ( Christ).
In Romans 1:25 we see it applied to humans and not to God.
And once more we see worship AND service:
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rev. 4-5 shows equality (right hand) and co-worship of Father and Lamb. If Jesus was Michael/created, He would not be equal with the Father nor worshipped with the same phrases by the angels. The same book says to worship God alone and not angels or men. Jesus is YHWH!
I don't see why McGrath's comments on John 20:28 are a stretch. The idea that Jesus and his Father are the same God is what is untenable in the gospel of John in view of many verses such as 17:3 that make a clear distinction between the only true God and the one he sent forth.
The use of the singular in Rev 22:3 clearly refers to God. Saying it refers to worship and service of the throne rather than God himself to explain away the singular is a stretched interpretation. If the author had wanted to say that both Jesus and God were worshipped and served in this verse he could easily have done so.
I don't see why McGrath's comments on John 20:28 are a stretch. The idea that Jesus and his Father are the same God is what is untenable in the gospel of John in view of many verses such as 17:3 that make a clear distinction between the only true God and the one he sent forth.
This has nothing to do with the erroneous trinitarian notion of God and Jesus are the same God ( the trinity doesn't say that by the way, it says that God as God has made Himself Know to us, is a triune "entity") and since I am not a trinitarian, it has nothing to do with me.
This is about whether or not Jesus was worshiped in Revelation.
The use of the singular in Rev 22:3 clearly refers to God. Saying it refers to worship and service of the throne rather than God himself to explain away the singular is a stretched interpretation. If the author had wanted to say that both Jesus and God were worshipped and served in this verse he could easily have done so.
IF the singular referrs to God then John of Patmos is saying that God and Jesus ( the Lamp) are the same. note the wording:
The pronoun autos can mean Him, Her , the same, themselves, himself, etc.
And we have:
The River of Life
22 Then the angel a showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the tree of life b with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 Nothing accursed will be found there any more. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants c will worship him; 4 they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants d what must soon take place.”
7 “See, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Epilogue and Benediction
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant e with you and your comrades f the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, g so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.”
And let everyone who hears say, “Come.”
And let everyone who is thirsty come.
Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book; 19 if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. h
All of Chapter 22 is filled with "Jesus and God being one" implications.
But just looking at that begnning we have the mention of the thron of God AND the Lamp:
22 Then the angel a showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the tree of life b with its twelve kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 Nothing accursed will be found there any more. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants c will worship him
We have "autos" translated as HIm and applying to BOTH God and the Lamb who are BOTh upon the Throne.
This is where the trinitarian will say "There you have it", but where I simply say that, As the Word and Son of God, Christ is worshipped WITH the Father.
Jn. 17:3 refutes modalism, not trinitarianism. It is consistent with Jn. 1:1 which refutes modalism and Arianism. Jn. 17:3
John/Jesus were strict monotheists. Jn. 20:28 does not make any sense apart from the Deity of Christ/trinitarian perspective (direct address to Jesus calling Him the God of me, the Lord of me, the same LXX phrase used by the Psalmist in worship to YHWH; one would not call Michael Archangel Lord/God and Jesus would have rebuked Thomas if He was not God; instead, He received it as worship and called Him blessed).
One does not worship created beings since only God is worthy of true worship. Either Jesus is God Almighty or He is not. Secondary, subordinate gods/divine beings is polytheisim, not biblical.
Secondary, subordinate gods/divine beings is polytheisim, not biblical.
Sure they are.
The worship of then is not permitted, but the existence of other "gods" and divine beings is biblical.
Satan for one, angels were viewed as divine beings, though liek Satan, not to be worshipped.
Biblical Monotheisim means holding ONE God as the Supreme God and worshipping only Him, it doesn't mean the only one god exists.
The monotheism that characterizes Judaism began in ancient Israel with the adoption of Yahweh as the single object of worship and the rejection of the gods of other tribes and nations without, initially, denying their existence. Islam is clear in confessing one, eternal, unbegotten, unequaled God, while Christianity holds that a single God is reflected in the three persons of the Holy Trinity.
There is one TRUE God and many false, so-called gods that are not really God at all (Gal. 4:8). Satan is a false God. Jesus/Father are both called Mighty God (el gibbor) in Isaiah. They are the one true God. Any 'gods' other than YHWH are not uncreated God by nature.
IF the singular referrs to God then John of Patmos is saying that God and Jesus ( the Lamp) are the same.
If the author of Revelation had intended to say that both Jesus and God were worshipped he could easily have conveyed that using the plural. Claiming that he wrote the singular but meant that both were worshipped is special pleading informed by Trinitarian tradition.
A poster here sustains that Jesus must be God because "worship" is addressed to him. Hello! Worship is a translation from the Greek, and the Greek word meaning is more broad than our understanding of the English term worship. It could range from bowing down in respect before a human, to full reverence, worship to God. Thus, Jesus rightfully could be the object of proskyneo , as well as God the Father. Hence, the sense of proskyneo itself does not prove that the object receiving it must be the Supreme God. Many folk s have a problem understanding this most basic meaning. The context ultimately is the determining factor for the right exegesis.
Another word that is equally misunderstood is the original word(s) for "God." Some here erroneously conclude that God can only be spoken of the Supreme God. But that is not the case. The term God, of itself, does not signal whether a god is true of false. There is a "family" of heavenly beings, called "gods" in the bible. Most of the members of this family are not false gods, they are "gods," that is, powerful divine beings who reflect God Almighty in "godness." There are also false or evil gods, such as Baal and Satan. Those who restrict the meaning of the original words of God to just one entity do so perhaps under a trinitarian premise. I argue that trinitarianism is in itself in conflict with Jewish monotheism.
