1st Cen. Christianity - One Organization

by StandFirm 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  JustHuman14

  The Early Christians did not have any central administration. In fact we find the opposite.

  1. The first council took place in Jerusalem (Acts 15) in order to define if Gentile Christians should follow the Hebrew law of circumcision. The elders of Jerusalem, the Apostles, gathered in order to settle this matter, since Apostle Paul was facing a huge issue by the Hebrew Christians due to the fact that he was baptizing the Gentiles without circumcision.
  2. Apostle Paul didn't need any approval from any central Christian administration. After he converted to Christianity (at that time called Odos-The Way) he started preaching Jesus Gospel the Nations.
  3. In Antioch Church, they decided to change the name of Jesus followers known at that time as Odos- The Way, to Christians. Then the rest of the Christian congregations accepted their new name.
  4. After the end of the first council in Jerusalem, Apostle Paul proceeded with the circumcision of Timothy, actually he disobeyed the final commandments of the Council. Still there were no sanctions against him.

  Christian church faced for 300 years severe persecution by the Romans, but beside the persecution Christianity survived. It was the message of the New God, who speaks about love and equality. This message was spread out due to the common Hellenic language and culture of the Roman Empire and that is why we also call the New Testament - The Greek Scriptures.

  Constantine saw this new religion as a tool to unify and keep the vast Roman Empire together. The Nicea Council, although he was present, the Bishops defined Jesus substance. What was told there by the Bishops it was what was considered by the Church for the last 300 years. We have numbers of Early Church writings from various Bishops, like the Letter from Ignatius to the Church of Magnisius, around 120 A.D that clearly showed Jesus Divinity, and what did Christians held and believe.

  The Church after coming out from the catacombs was finally free to build Temples to worship Jesus like the magnificent Temple Of Saint Sophia in Constantinople, the Capitol of the East Roman Empire. The symbol of the Ecumenical Patriarch was the 2 headed Eagle, pointing that the Roman Empire has West and East.

  Unfortunately this unified Church came to an end at 1080A.D, when Schisma occurred with the Orthodox Apostolic Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The great issue of Filiogue still separates the East and West Church along with Infallible of Pope. At the Orthodox Church the Ecumenical Patriarch it is consider equal among the rest of the Bishops of the Church and he is only the presiding overseer of the Church, something that the Orthodox Church correctly couldn't accept Pope to be above all.

  Indeed the East Roman Empire-wrongly called Byzantine by many, lasted for more than a 1000 years, from 325 A.D when Constantine moved the capitol of Roman Empire to Constantinople and ended at 1453 A.D when Ottoman Turks siege Constantinople, a city that was ready to fall due to the previous 2 Crusades that supposed to free the Holy Land, but actually they destroyed the structure of the East Roman Empire.
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  Band on the Run

  See Wikipedia Christianity in the First Cenutry which backs my assertion. A footnote is available. I"m lazy with citations. There is no proof that Peter was first Bishop of Rome. Legend asserts it and my local priest explained that anthropolgy has proven that these legends have more merit than we give them at first glance. I view Peter being the first Bishop and the Pope as just as important as Paul. Weire talking the Roman Catholic Church (I wonder what it was called before the split with the East). I'm not hiding the fact that I am Anglican, almost Protestant. It is such a fundamental point I believe someone would have mentioned it. I can easily see how legend may have developed after Rome's dominance. I was not there personally so I don't know.

  One of my doubts is the loose nature of the early church and how people like to keep decisions local. I found out that there is a collection of anteNicene writings on the Internet. Complete texts available. Something happened from Desert Fathers to the Borgias.

  The apostolic legends and writings have helped my faith. They are so clueless in the Bible. Yet they truly became adversity seeking evangelists. B/c of my faith, I attribute this to the Pentecost experience.

  Does anyone know where to find basic info about the nonwestern Church. The Copts, the Eastern Church, the Indian Church, --it is utterly fascinating. If there a central organization stamping conformity, the history would be lifeless. I've read wikipedia. So I suppose I need something between wikipedia and graduate level history.
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  StandFirm

  Marvin Shilmer asks:
  
  "-- Were there true Christians in the centuries leading to the 19th and 20th centuries?
  -- If so, were those true Christians part of one administrative and functional structure used by God?
  -- If so, what was that one administrative and functional structure used by God?"
  
  There were Christians in the intervening centuries. And they did organize themselves in some cases, as best they could. Remember, though, that those were the centuries of apostasy, of the wheat being hidden by the weeds. Wouldn't it be better to imitate the 1st century's spiritual prosperity? Thus, what you bring up is a red herring.
  
  "-- Was being thrown out because of disobeying a what or a who? (“However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.”— Gal. 1:8, NWT)"
  
  Notice that the sin is declaring something 'beyond what WE declared to you'. The sin is disobeying a WHAT (Christian doctrine) that the WHO (Christian congregation) taught you.
  
  Also, I notice that some have brought have brought up the Pharisees, as though they were Jehovah's organization. However, it was the Pharisees who seated THEMSELVES in the seat of Moses. They were the apostates from Jehovah's organization.
  
  Finally, the purpose of this thread is not to debate the inspiration of the Bible. Rather, the key question is:
  
  Did all 1st century Christians obey what the Apostles said according to the Bible? If not, explain why.
  
  Apologies if I missed an answer in the many responses.
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  wobble

  Dear Standfirm, you started the thread, and the question, or assertion that is the title is that Ist Cent. Christians were all in one "organization".

  This conjectire has been shown to be totally wrong, please read the posts above fully, it is basic courtesy to read replies on your own thread.

  Also it has been shown that Paul did not obey what the Apostles said, he circumcised Timothy. Why ? he explains, and by so doing shows the autonomy he had.

  Can you honestly read the first two chapters of Galations, without WT specs on, and tell me there was an organization of christians in the 1st century ?
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  the prisoner No 6

  Stand firm, I have awaited your response, and i cannot believe what my eyes are telling me, HAVE YOU READ ANY OF THE CORRESPONDECE !!!!!!

  PLEASE go back and read and respond to the points ,The people that have engaged with you in this debate, deserve a well thought out responce from YOU, to the points they have made, not the half arsed drivel and platitudes you have posted. If you dont posses the nessary skills needed to analyse and debate here fine just say so,NOW GO BACK TO YOUR COMPUTER AND PRESENT A MEANINGFULL RESPONCE TO THE POINTS RAISED HERE ,PLEASE.
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  Room 215

  StandFirm, it takes a very vivid imagination to squeeze a 130 year-old American millenialist religion into the mold of First Century Christianity. Kina like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Who, for example, is their latter-day Agabus? Where are the collections for widows and orphans?
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  punkofnice

  I haven't had chance to read all this thread yet. Some good stuff here.

  My immediate thoughts were that if the comparison between 1st century Christians being a parallel of the WTB$ then I didn't notice in the Bible where the 1st century Christians had (to name just a couple of things)

  A secret 'flock' book that was mainly about how to get friends shunned

  A policy that protected child molesters within the congregations

  Endless publications outside of the Bible

  .............just my thoughts. Remember I was born in the Borg so haven't been very well educated so am fairly basic in my understanding of things.

  
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  ProdigalSon

  Many Bible believers are deluded by its widespread presence and popularity. Since it has been mass-produced and forced down the throats of so many people for so long, it MUST be God's work. Well, the simple fact of the matter is that the only reason it was the BIBLE that became so popular was because the people that proliferated it had the most money, the first printing presses, and the biggest cannons.
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  Hobo Ken

  Wow this thread has potential.......
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  jgnat

  After three pages, you pick out a strawman? Well, if this is the quality of your defence, StandFirm, I am deflated. I was hoping for some lively discussion, not to mention a response to my comments.

  You have been given biblical, historical, and evidential material that the early church was not centrally controlled, but highly varied in practice.

  There were Christians in the intervening centuries. And they did organize themselves in some cases, as best they could. Remember, though, that those were the centuries of apostasy, of the wheat being hidden by the weeds.

  A bethelite researcher was given the task of confirming this claim. She couldn't. The Discoveries of Barbara Anderson, Searching for Answers.

  -- Gal. 1:8, NWT...Notice that the sin is declaring something 'beyond what WE declared to you'. The sin is disobeying a WHAT (Christian doctrine) that the WHO (Christian congregation) taught you.

  Wouldn't the "we" in this case be Paul and his brethren, as addressed at the beginning of the letter? Paul also lists his credentials, appointed not by man or the christian congregation, but by Jesus Christ. (Gal. 1:1,2)
  
  Also, I notice that some have brought have brought up the Pharisees, as though they were Jehovah's organization. However, it was the Pharisees who seated THEMSELVES in the seat of Moses. They were the apostates from Jehovah's organization.

  How could the Pharisees be apostates to an organization that had not been formed yet? Who represented Jehovah's Organization before the Christians? If the WT claim that Jehovah alway works through an organization, there should be an unbroken line of "true believers". Was it the followers of John the Baptist? Who was it before him? Did John the Baptist get re-baptized before his beheading in to Jesus' new organization, for instance?
  
  Finally, the purpose of this thread is not to debate the inspiration of the Bible. Rather, the key question is: Did all 1st century Christians obey what the Apostles said according to the Bible? If not, explain why.

  I don't see why we must limit our understanding of first century Christianity to biblical sources. I thought we were discussing if Christianity as established in the first century, was coordinated and controlled by a God-appointed organization. On this idea rests the WT organization's claim that Jehovah works through them alone as God's representative organization today. This would negate the spiritual experience of anyone outside the organization. Quite the claim, and worthy of debate.