by poopsiecakes 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Larsinger58,
Interesting timeline...just curious...where did you get the death of Herod as being in 1 AD? Everything I have read has his death being somewhere between 4 and 2 BC. Your number makes more sense in supporting the 33 AD date, but I have not been able to find a supporting date for Herod's death of 1 AD.
TYA
@Larsinger58:
Jesus died on Thursday, Nisan 20th, 33 CE, after a 3.5-year ministry.
So are you suggesting that Nisan 20 was the day on which the passover was celebrated in the year 33 AD? Are you suggesting that Nisan 20 is when the passover is celebrated in any year?
"This month will be the start of the months for you." (Exodus 12:2)
The first month on the Hebrew calendar is Nisan.
"And it must continue under safeguard by you until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings." (Exodus 12:6)
The passover victim was to be slaughtered on Nisan 14 "between the two evenings"
"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening you are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening." (Exodus 12:18)
Beginning with the passover, unfermented cakes were to be eaten for eight consecutive days from Nisan 14 to Nisan 21, with the first day being the day when the passover was celebrated followed by the seven-day-long festival of unfermented cakes, with Day 1 of the festival being the second day and Day 7 of the festival being the eighth day.
"'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between the two evenings is the passover to Jehovah. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unfermented cakes to Jehovah. Seven days you should eat unfermented cakes. On the first day you will have a holy convention occur. No sort of laborious work may you do.'" (Leviticus 23:5-7)
The passover meal was to be celebrated on Nisan 14 "between the two evenings," which means, as made clear at Deuteronomy 16:6, that the passover victim was to be slaughtered "in the evening as soon as the sun sets, at the appointed time of your coming out of Egypt."
"When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples." (Matthew 26:20)
As required by the Law of Moses, Jesus and 12 apostles gathered for the passover seder on the evening of Nisan 14.
He must die on a Thursday since that is "three nights" to Saturday night, when he rose.
First, it must be noted that the Jews reckoned a day from sunset-to-sunset or evening-to-evening, so Jesus observed the passover with his apostles after 6:00 pm, during the evening hours on Thursday, when Nisan 14 began, but because Jesus was impaled approximately 21 hours later "about the ninth hour" during the daylight hours on Friday before the next evening at 6:00 pm when Friday, Nisan 14 ended and Friday, Nisan 15 began, Jesus essentially died on Thursday/Friday Nisan 14 within a 24-hour period.
Second, the Jews didn't use a midnight-to-midnight reckoning of the day in use today, for unlike what happens when the clock strikes midnight according to our midnight-to-midnight way of reckoning a day, Thursday did not become Friday, Nisan 15 after the stroke of midnight, but at dawn, or at 6:00 am, Thursday became Friday, Nisan 14, for according to the Jews' evening-to-evening way of reckoning a day, Nisan 14 began the previous evening (Thursday, at 6:00 pm) and ended the next evening (Friday, at 6:00 pm), so that Friday, Nisan 14 ended and Friday, Nisan 15 began at 6:00 pm.
Third, the Bible clearly indicates that Jesus died on Nisan 14, in the afternoon of Nisan 14 at "about the ninth hour."(Matthew 27:46) so if it were true that Jesus died on Thursday, Nisan 20, then that evening, Friday, Nisan 21, would have begun Day 1 of the seven-day festival of unfermented cakes, which is a sabbath. But the Bible indicates it was "on the first day of the week," and "while there was still darkness," that Mary Magdalene "and the other Mary" (Jesus' mother) and Johanna, Chuza's wife, and Susana, and maybe Salome, Mary's sister have gone to Jesus' memorial tomb early that morning "bearing the spices that they had prepared."(John 20:1; Matthew 28:1; Luke 24:1, 10).
Whereas 6:00 pm in the evening on Friday, Nisan 21 would have been a sabbath, for Day 1 of the festival of unfermented cakes is always the day that follows the passover, you are here suggesting that when 6:00 pm of the following evening on Saturday, Nisan 22 arrived, Day 2 of the festival of unfermented cakes, which is not a sabbath, these women waited an additional day after the sabbath had ended until Sunday, Nisan 23 to bring spices to Jesus' tomb early in the morning "while there was still darkness." Why would they have waited an additional day to do this?
The truth is that it was "on the first day of the week," which began at 6:00 pm during the evening hours on Saturday, when Nisan 16 began, but at 6:00 am during the daylight hours on Sunday, Nisan 16, or, in other words, it was at dawn the next morning when we learn that "a great earthquake had taken place" on Saturday/Sunday Nisan 16. (Matthew 28:2)
You speak of there being "three nights," but Jesus was dead for only two nights, for the Bible indicates that he would rise "on the third day," and just as Jesus had foretold, he was "raised up the third day." (Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:4) Where ever did you get this idea that there were "three nights"?
So those thinking he died on a Friday and that he died the same day he ate passover are not following scripture, although, John 19:14 is mistranslated. It has Jesus' trial occurring the same day he dies, which is impossible.
You have here asserted John 19:14 to have been mistranslated, but isn't this just your opinion? I mean, what basis do you have for making such an assertion. Do you have any proof that every English Bible translation "mistranslated" John 19:14 to say something that it really ought not to say? Jesus was tried on the same day that he had observed the passover with his apostles, which day -- Nisan 14 -- began in the evening at 6:00 pm on Thursday, Nisan 14, which day continued until it ended the next evening at 6:00 pm when Saturday, Nisan 15 began, which means that Jesus, who had died "about the ninth hour," or around 3:00 pm on Friday, Nisan 14, had been dead for three hours. You go on to write:
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.
It's true that John 19:14 states --
"Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour."
--- but do you also find a problem with the Greek syntax at Mark 15:42 and at Luke 23:54?
Mark 15:42: "Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,"
Luke 23:54: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening light of the sabbath was approaching."
According to Mark 15:42, "Preparation" was "the day before the sabbath," and remember all of these things were occurring on "the day before the sabbath," that is to say, on the day before the festival of unfermented cakes, the first day of which is a sabbath. Notice that Luke 23:54 indicates that "the evening light of the sabbath was approaching," meaning that the day referred to at John 19:14 as "preparation of the passover" -- Nisan 14 -- was about to come to an end and the festival of unfermented cakes -- "the sabbath" that began on Nisan 15 -- was about to begin.
However, Luke 23:50-56, states that these women followed Jesus' body until it had been laid in the tomb provided for Jesus' burial by Joseph of Arimathea, after which they planned to prepare spices and perfumed oils, "but of course, they rested on the sabbath according to the commandment," which explains why the waited after the sabbath had ended until Saturday/Sunday, Nisan 16 at 6:00 am at dawn the next morning "while there was still darkness" outside to bring those spices and perfumed oils they had prepared to Jesus' tomb. (John 20:1)
@tenyearsafter:
Interesting timeline...just curious...where did you get the death of Herod as being in 1 AD? Everything I have read has his death being somewhere between 4 and 2 BC.
While Larsinger58 will answer your question based on a different set of facts, I do not believe it possible that Herod was alive in 1 AD, but that he had died two years earlier. Here's why:
I've already pointed out that Jesus was born in 2 BC. Herod conspired to use "the Magi" in order to discover Jesus' whereabouts as Herod purposed to order the murder of the future king of Israel (Matthew 2:8), but upon being thwarted by God's angel that had ordered Joseph to flee to Egypt with his wife and son, and not knowing Jesus' whereabouts, Herod went on to order the murders of all male children "from two years old and under" (Matthew 2:16), proving that Jesus was not a newborn infant at the time, for when those astrologers found Jesus -- the Christmas story claims there were three of them, but the Bible doesn't indicate how many of these men had come -- he was not living in a barn, nor was he lying in a manger, but Jesus is described as being the "young child" they saw when they "went into the house." (Matthew 2:11) He was likely at least one year old and approaching two years old when this event occurred.
Because Herod had sought to have Jesus killed by ordering the deaths of all children in Bethlehem from two years old and under, Joseph and Mary had to flee from Bethlehem to Egypt until Herod's death (Matthew 2:13-15), so I'm thinking it logical that his order to kill these two-year-old male children would likely have gone out while Herod was still alive. What do you think?
In Jewish Antiquities, XVII, 190, 191 [viii, 1], Josephus writes that Herod's death occurred some 34 years after his capture of Jerusalem, and if these years are reckoned according to the regnal year, then Herod's death would have been in the year 1 BC. Keep in mind that Jesus stepfather, Joseph, would not have returned from Egypt to where he fled along with his wife and his young son (Jesus) until after Herod’s death (Matthew 2:19, 20), whose death had indeed occurred in 1 BC. Joseph thereupon went on to move his family from Egypt back to Israel, to a city called Nazareth in Galilee.
@djeggnog
Larsinger58,
Interesting timeline...just curious...where did you get the death of Herod as being in 1 AD? Everything I have read has his death being somewhere between 4 and 2 BC. Your number makes more sense in supporting the 33 AD date, but I have not been able to find a supporting date for Herod's death of 1 AD.
TYA
As I explained, Herod gives two rulership dates for Herod. One is 37 years from 40, based on when he allegedly was told he would become king, and one that is 34 years from 37, which represents when he officially became king. When history is revised, eclipses, wars and coins and outside histories become problematic since they are clues to discovering the revisionism. So to hide this, often an explanation for evidence of the original reign is introduced. For instance, if you were going to introduce a generation of 30 years into history for some reason. Perhaps to expand the reign of some king you were trying to impress. To help hide this, you would not come up with new names in the genealogy tree, but you would repeat names. if you repeat names, then it is hard to tell which king is actually being referred to. If you have four generations of fathers and sons all named "James" then it is difficult to observe a contradiction. You've got lots of choices to harmonize the record.=
Likewise, Herod minted coins up to his 37th year. So if you wanted to reduce his rulership by 3 years, you'll have a problem explaining the 37-year coinages. So what you do, to cover this, is invent a fake rulership of 37 years. Then when historians discover the 37-year coins, they can link it to the fake 37-year rule. Of course, why would Herod make coins in his unofficial 37th year rather than his official 37th year, that is, when he officially became king in year 37? So a double rulership is always a "red flag" suggesting revisionism.
Second, the Bible clearly contradicts the popular history of Herod dying in 4 BC or 3 BC. Jesus has to be over 1 year of age when Herod dies and Jesus is not born until 2 BC.
So we exercise the option of presuming the unofficial rule of 37 years was actually the original 37-year rule beginning in 37. We then compare that to the 2 BC birth of Christ. When we begin the rule of Herod in 37 BC and end it 37 years later, we get the date of Shebat 2, 1 AD. This confirms Jesus' birth in 2 BC.
Secondly, whenever you see an eclipse introduced into history, it is usually a clue to the true dating. This is clearly what Josephus is up to when he related that event of the eclipse, linked to an annual Jewish fast day, just 21 days before Herod's death.
Now Josephus claims he ruled for 34 years from 37, which means he would have died on Shebat 2, 3 BC. That's the fake date. But there is no eclipse the previous month of Tebet, which is when the annual Jewish Fast of the 10th occurs. Eclipses occur around the 14th of the month so you have reason to believe this eclipse might have actually occurred and that Josephus is using it to correctly date the death of Herod, which was revised to another time. That is, the 34-year rule from 37 having Herod die in 3 BC doesn't work. By contrast, when you apply a 37-year rule from 37 BC with Herod's death on Shebat 2, 1 AD, there is a lunar eclipse that occurs 4 days after the Fast of Tebet 10 in 1 BC. Remember, there is no zero Roman year so 18 days after the eclipse on Tebet 14, 1 BC, is Shebat 2, 1 AD. So Josephus is giving us a clue based on this eclipse to confirm the true dating for the death of Herod.
The eclipse the historians focus on is that of March 13/14, 4 BC. But the eclipse must occur 18 days before Herod's death, just 4 days after a Jewish fast day. March 13/14 is a month prior to passover but some 6 weeks or 10 weeks after Herod's death on Shebat 2, depending upon whetehr there is an intercalary month between month 12 and month 1 when passover is celebrated. So it doesn't work and never has worked. In fact, a 4 BC eclipse contradicts Josephus himself.
So even with the eclipse you have two choices: 1) You can presume the eclipse is totally spurious and never occurred, since it doesn't work for his official 3 BC death, or 2) You can presume it is a clue to the true year of Herod's death and thus matching the eclipse reference to the month of Tebet would give us the true potential year of Herod's death. One year an eclipse occurs in Tebet is 1 BC which matches Herod's death in 1 AD.
Then, we have Quirinius. It seems while the Judean records were revised, the official Roman records were not. Thus there is a list of the governor's over Judea during these times. The published list leaves the governor blank for the 4-year period from 4 BC to 1 BC. The official list claims "unknown" for that period. Yeah, right! This is the critical time of the census that took place at the time of Jesus' birth, so of course, it was Quirinius. The following video shows you this list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TepIl6_CkTY
So even if you look at alternative secular records, you get scenarios that independently would provide the correct date of Herod's death on Shebat 2, 1 AD.
IN SUMMARY: The lunar eclipse and rule of Quirnius are confirmed to match a 2 BC birth of Christ. Claims Herod died in other years is based on revisionism.
LS
@Larsinger58:
Jesus died on Thursday, Nisan 20th, 33 CE, after a 3.5-year ministry.
So are you suggesting that Nisan 20 was the day on which the passover was celebrated in the year 33 AD? Are you suggesting that Nisan 20 is when the passover is celebrated in any year?
No. Sorry, you totally misunderstood. Let me be as direct as possible.
Jesus sent the disciples out on the day the lambs were killed, which is Nisan 14th. The lambs were killed beginning at 3 p.m. at the temple per Josephus. Nisan 14th is the day of preparation.
Jesus joined them after sunset to eat the traditional passover after sundown. Once sundown occurs it is the sabbath day. Note that the same night the Jews ate passover is the same night they leave Egypt. They leave Egypt on the 15th, which is a sabbath day. That means that sabbath day included the passover meal since the sabbath day began after sundown. IT'S THE SAME DAY. The same day they eat passover is the same sabbath day they leave Egypt.
So if we superimpose the time the Jews were leaving Egypt on the 15th, shortly after eating passover, to the time of Jesus, then Jesus would have been arrested around the time the Jews were leaving Egypt! That is, on the 15th. That's very simple.
Noting this, Jesus could not die the same day he eats passover, because you cannot execute someone on a sabbath day. Further, the Bible says he died on a day of preparation. By the time he was arrested, it was long after preparation.
So what choices do we have. Our only conclusion can be that it must have been on the following day of preparation that he died. The next day of preparation was on Thursday, Nisan 20th.
So, NO, I am not saying passover was eaten on Nisan 20th, I'm saying Jesus died on Nisan 20th, which means he did not die the same day he eats passover, which many are confused about.
LS
You speak of there being "three nights," but Jesus was dead for only two nights, for the Bible indicates that he would rise "on the third day," and just as Jesus had foretold, he was "raised up the third day." (Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:4) Where ever did you get this idea that there were "three nights"?
ROFL! How is it that you have so much knowledge of all the scriptures yet have to ask where the reference to the "three nights" is? That's amazing.
Matthew 12:40 says Jesus would be in the grave for "three days and three nights." That's where the "three nights" comes from. Why didn't you look it up in the concordance?
LS
Second, the Jews didn't use a midnight-to-midnight reckoning of the day in use today, for unlike what happens when the clock strikes midnight according to our midnight-to-midnight way of reckoning a day, Thursday did not become Friday, Nisan 15 after the stroke of midnight, but at dawn, or at 6:00 am, Thursday became Friday, Nisan 14, for according to the Jews' evening-to-evening way of reckoning a day, Nisan 14 began the previous evening (Thursday, at 6:00 pm) and ended the next evening (Friday, at 6:00 pm), so that Friday, Nisan 14 ended and Friday, N
Sorry, but this is not correct. The Jews actually did change the date at Midnight as the Egyptians did when they first came out of Egypt. Thus the first day of unfermented cakes is said to begin on the 14th "in the evening". The Jews left Egypt on the 15th, the same night they ate passover. So either the date changed at midnight or passover was eaten on the 15th. Later on the date was considered to change at sunset, but that's a later custom.
LS
What's it say on the certificate?
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.
It's true that John 19:14 states --
"Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour."
--- but do you also find a problem with the Greek syntax at Mark 15:42 and at Luke 23:54?
Mark 15:42: "Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,"
Luke 23:54: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the evening light of the sabbath was approaching."
Absolutely, no problem. What you are missing is that there are two special "high sabbaths" of passover. Let me quote for you Exodus 12:
Exodus 12:16 And on the first day there is to take place for YOU a holy convention, and on the seventh day a holy convention. No work is to be done on them. Only what every soul needs to eat, that alone may be done for YOU ."
So you see, there are two sabbath days of passover. Likewise there are two preparation days for passover, Nisan 14th and Nisan 20th. So you have a choice. Jesus must die on a Thursday, "three nights" before Saturday night, and in 33 CE Thursday was a day of preparation. That's the day jesus died.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE! How clever of you to avoid the issue. I brought up a very important point which you avoid. Which I will reassert and request your response:
You can't have a noon-time trial, followed by a third-hour (9 p.m.) impalement followed by a noon-time darkness. That takes two days. But when we check the Greek syntax at John 19:14 we find it actually indicates this was the day before "preparation" instead of on preparation as falsely translated.
So please explain this to me. A noon time trial followed by a third-hour impalement followed by a noon-time darkness, all on the same day. That's what you need to explain. How can all this happen on one day? His trial is at noon. It gets dark at noon and lots of things happen in between. So what's going on per your interpretation/explanation. I'm curious. It seems to me you need two days here. You apparently get past this in some way, I'm just wondering how you do that.
Thanks!
STICK TO THE BASICS. THIS IS COMPLICATED, I'LL ADMIT.
1. Luke 22:7 says Jesus sent out the disciples the same day the lambs were killed. He joined them after sunset. So no matter what, we know the passover meal was eaten on a different day than when he sent his disciples out.
This contradicts what the WTS is claiming, which is the lambs were killed between sundown and nightfall, which is when they interpret "between the two evenings." Of course, this contradicts our historical reference from Josephus who clearly says the lambs were killed at Jerusalem between the "ninth and 11th hours" which is between 3 and 5 p.m. Of course the WTS deals with this by saying Jesus sent out the 2 disciples on the 13th, and they prepared everything for the meal except the killing of lamb, which was killed after sundown. Completely contradicting scripture. But even so, again, it is clear that between the time he sent them out, even if it was right after sundown, it would not be until the following sundown that he ate the passover meal, keeping in mind that the day they were sent out must be the day the lambs are killed. The lambs are killed on a different day than passover is eaten.
2. Jesus' trial was at noon but it also got dark at noon. In between the noon trial and the noon darkness, you have a third-hour impalement. The third hour is 9 o'clock. Obviously, he must have been impaled at 9 p.m. since that is the first third-hour following a trial at noon. Bottom line is, that you need two days for this. The trial has to be a day before it gets dark. Once you face that, then you know Jesus could not have died the same day he ate the passover meal.
3. The official passover Seder meal is eaten on the same night the Jews leavae Egypt. The Jews leave Egypt on the 15th after midnight. That means that Jesus was arrested on the 15th which is ALWAYS A SABBATH DAY. ALWAYS. Jesus died on a day of perparation not a sabbath day, thus Jesus could not have died on the same day he eats passover.
Now some are confused because they think the date changes at sundown. But when the Jews first left Egypt, they changed the date at midnight as did the Egyptians. Therefore, when the DATES are in the context, the Bible has to use two different dates to describe a sabbath day. That is, if the date did not change until midnight when the Israelites first left, then the sabbath day of the first day of UFC must have begun on Nisan 14th in the evening. The Israelites left on the 15th, but that's after midnight when the date changed. No problem. Thus we note Exodus begins the 1st day of UFC on the fourteenth in the evening.
Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the evening YOU are to eat unfermented cakes down till the twenty-first day of the month in the evening."
