"Who else are we to go away to?"

by simon17 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  simon17

  Jesus Christ and his Heavenly Father, Jehovah have become ever so much more REAL in my life - I can feel Holy Spirit working now in my life - I experience the answers to my prayers almost daily in both large and small matters -

  So do not let your heart be troubled - Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in Jesus Christ. Observe His word and keep his commandments and they will come and make their dwelling place with you - you will SEE Him because He lives and you will live. You will find peace.

  Well, I appreciate your newfound faith, but that was not the point of my original thread. You have every bit as much hope in unseen things as the Witness does. Suffering now has a reason. It has en explanation. Death is not final. You will see dead loved ones again. You will go to a better place. Someone is looking after you in your day to day life. The scores for all men will be settled fairly, at some future point.

  If you reject all of that, then removing THAT (which in the context of thsi thread I call a crutch, not to demean the realness of your religious feelings), is what I find very difficult to get a JW to do. THEY feel the SAME WAY YOU DO. They feel that suffering has a reason, death is not final, their prayers are answered daily in small matters and great. All your feelings are the same.

  Anyway,

  I'm a good person. If the evidence were not so stongly against it, I would like to believe and have all those nice hopes too. Why not put the power of your prayer to the test and pray for me. Something tangible. Something unmistakeable that we agree on today that will happen tomorrow. If it happens, I'll seriously consider whatever group you'd like to recommend. How about that? How about just a simple phone call from one of your group (or a visit to my house) tomorrow? I don't mean to be annoying: I seriously doubt your prayer for it will be answered, but then again my offer is serious as well. I'd like to see something unmistakeable. One. Thing. I'll extend this offer to anyone actually. To be quite honest I'm really not in that good of a place these days, and like I said, I'm not a bad guy, so I think God should be willing to do that, yes?
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  simon17

  If there is no better place to go..........why leave if the (wrong) policies of WT are not affecting you adversely?

  Fair point. Some people are more interested in believing they have absolute truth and in actually having it. And I certainly don't begrudge people their right to make decisions in their life that make them comfortable with themselves (especially regarding worship). But I do have a problem if they turn around and begrudge me mine.
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  maksym

  Dear Simon17

  For me I reasoned that since the first churches (congregations) in the New Testament, which were set up in the first century, was where the people went. Granted before Christianity became legalised people networked underground such as being in house churches and secret locations. However there must have been places of worship to go to for all the people since then until 1879 when our so-called God's organisation came onto the scene. We are talking about nearly 1900 years of the WTBTS not being around or existing.

  I asked myself where would I go if the WTBTS was not here or if I lived before 1879. I think this is a good question because it places the historical significance to the issue. It would be just the same if one was a scientologist and reasoned the same as to what would they do before 1950. The Watchtower Corporation is just a young upstart religion when put in this context.

  Assume the year is 1825 and you want to go find God and a Church. Where would you go? I asked a JW this one time and He said "no where", but I don't think he realised he was effectively saying that God just abandoned all those people and true salvation would come in the future. Ridiculous! It is as if a JW knocks on your door today and you tell them the TRUE religion won't be set up on earth here yet until another 150 years (insert years of choice). I'm sure he'll have a puzzled look on his face.

  Mind control at its finest.
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  Black Sheep

  "Who else are we to go away to?"

  Never answer their questions.

  Insist they answer yours.

  The above question is just a diversion tactic that they pull out of their arsenal when they realise they are in the poo.

  Use psycholocal warfare on them for a change. Make them feel guilty for attempting to fool you by changing the subject.

  They reckon they have The Truth. They reckon their religious leaders were selected in 1919 to be God's channel.

  They reckon that if they can't coerce you into being a door knocking Dub who professes to believe EVERYTHING that their religious leaders teach, that God is going to kill you and feed you to the birds. So .... how do they ever hope to save your sorry arse if they don't answer your questions?

  How are they going to feel if God kills you at Armageddon just because they weaseled their way out of providing a sensible answer to the question that they are being asked right now?
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  There old illustration is worth repeating with some modification... If you find out that you had been given wrong directions and were on the wrong road, would you continue driving and ignore the evidence that you were going the wrong way? Would you continue on the path following someone that was happy to be on the wrong road? How many miles would you continue driving if you were told that your destination was "very near"? Or would you be prepared to take the map, orient yourself on the map, head in the right direction, and then find others along the way that are going in the right direction?
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  saltyoldlady

  Dear Simon17 - I will indeed pray for you right now - but I have no magical powers - I can't make ice cubes appear on a hot summer's day. Nor do I have a suggestion as to what group to attend. I guess part of what I was trying to say is God gives us a choice as to where to go for "fellowship" but He can be found in many places - the WTS does not have an exclusive domain on Him. But please know that I care and I'm sure many others here that are reading your posts care about you and we will be praying for the lifting up of your spirits. It's never fun to be in a "difficult place" or down in heart and spirit.
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  Ding

  Peter's answer to the question was, "Jesus."
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  simon17

  salty, you sound like a nice person, this is going to be my last post to you discussing this because my intention is not to try to tear down your beliefs so you are at the same points I'm at. But I did ask you the question about prayer because it illustrates the point I'm making:

  Dear Simon17 - I will indeed pray for you right now - but I have no magical powers - I can't make ice cubes appear on a hot summer's day.

  No you can't, I know. But God is supposed to be able to have unlimited power. Thats what prayer is supposed to be: allowing yourself to get beyond what you are capable of yourself. So I see prayer as a (useful) tool of postive mental thinking allowing you to accomplish things on your own. If it can't do something that I can't do on my own, they its certainly not indicative of a higher power.
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  tec

  So do not let your heart be troubled - Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in Jesus Christ. Observe His word and keep his commandments and they will come and make their dwelling place with you - you will SEE Him because He lives and you will live. You will find peace.

  Your group sounds interesting and dynamic as well, Saltyoldlady. Thank you for sharing your peace-inspiring thoughts.

  Tammy
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  VanillaMocha73

  to Simon:

  "Fine, if the Witnesses aren't the truth, then show me the better answer and I'll consider it" ... "Try to top everlasting life.." etc.

  Here is the trouble with that thinking. (And please don't take offense, because I'm not really good at typing what I mean with the right inflections, etc.) "Better answer' - "everlasting life" - it is all about "I am a Christian / JW/ Bhuddist <<insert religion here>> because of what I am going to GET."

  As an ex-JW and now a Christian ... I stopped having a relationship with God because of what I am going to get. It seems so weird that I go back to think about that pet panda now and shake my head.

  There is no "better" or "worse" answer .. in fact why does there have to be an "answer" that you are selling to anyone, anyway? Instead of saying "there are no good answers" it is "There are no good answers right now." Life is an adventure of learning and seeing what is beyond the next corner.

  Sadness and lonliness is a step from leaving JWs. It does feel like "going away." Many is the night and day I spent crying over it. But, honestly, it is the first step towards going toward Jesus. You might not believe in Him right now, and I can understand that. But be assured that He believes in you.

  You say you "would like to believe" ... and you want to see something unmistakeable. Problem is, how will you know what it is when you see it? People saw the Lord Jesus in front of them, ressurecting dead people, and they didn't see it. If you want to believe, then read the Bible book of John. Think about it. Ask God (and you can add "if You exist") in your prayer to speak to you. Tell Him point blank that you don't believe, that you don't see why there is all this crap in the world. And then listen.... Prayer can do what you cannot do, but it is not the way you might expect. You can do what your babies cannot, but when they expect you to hand them a Mercedes Benz ... it ain't happening!!

  Yes, there is suffering in this world. There is poverty. There are people with mental disorders and emotional disorders. I think they are all here to teach us about life. Is God going to be Santa Claus and just magically fix it all? Define fixed.... Is it to be rich like Bill Gates? There are poor people happier than him, because they know something that is more important than money. Is it not to be in mental torment because of a bad upbringing? Jesus can take that torment away and replace it. And also help you to grow from it. There are people who have never had a clue what mental and emotional illness is, and seldom do they reach a hand to a sufferer in understanding. We support each other with "I've been there, I've done it."

  No, I don't have faith in unseen things. I see Jesus in the people around me, in my heart. I don't care if I am going to a better place or nowhere at all. I'd like scores to be settled as much as the next guy, but I accept that I don't know enough to be able to step out and tell anyone how to settle the score. Is Jesus looking after me in my day to day life? Sure - He walks with me, He dwells in my heart. Can bad stuff still happen to me? Can it get so hard that I just don't think I can go on? Do I live a charmed and wonderful life because I have Jesus? I promise, bad stuff still happens.

  Will I call you tomorrow, or come to your house? I don't know.... But Jesus will ... He's knocking right now. He doesn't recommend a group. He recommends Himself. The group, if you so choose, is a side thing. They will be human - they will not be right all of the time. And its OK - and you get to disagree with them without penalty. How cool is that?