Are you a TRUE Christian?!?

by brotherdan 152 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Tammy, the world doesn't have to revolve around the true believer. They pray and hope God will fix the car or their own health, but they revolve their world around the idea that God's will is being done.

    It's a tough comparison with the car because the true believer would have to be sure he did all the proper preventative maintenance or that God wants him to experience this breakdown for a reason. Focus on the health issue. A true believer should be sure when he is sick that God could cure him and would cure him after his sincere prayers are heard unless it is God's will that he not be cured. Either way, he wouldn't call in some doctor unless God TELLS HIM TO DO THAT.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    brotherdan, Jehovahs witnesses are simply following the example Jesus sets - John 4:23 - 24

    John 4:23-24 (New International Version, ©2010)

    23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

  • tec
    tec

    OTWO - How do you know what a "true" believer is or is not? Or what a true believer should think or do? What makes your judgment on this topic right?

    A true believer should be sure when he is sick that God could cure him and would cure him after his sincere prayers are heard unless it is God's will that he not be cured. Either way, he wouldn't call in some doctor unless God TELLS HIM TO DO THAT.

    Why? How do you know this?

    What you consider "true" or "convenient", I might consider to be strong or weak, though both still faith... if I thought I could judge it at all. (Even Peter, after taking his first few steps on water, doubted and so began to sink.)

    Tammy

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    Always. Never. Every. True. False.

    Words that are usually wrong or misused. People who use such terms are often thinking in black-and-white terms like cult members are supposed to.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Tammy, this is a debate forum where opinions are expressed. I am basically stating my opinion that goes the opposite of the false statement that there are no atheists in foxholes. There are no "true" believers when they have alternatives to accepting what God has for them.

    I choose not to debate this topic endlessly with those that accept those alternatives, such as the towtruck or the doctor.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    I asked my wife a similar question to this tonight. My wife is becoming very culty and very black and white in her thinking. Frankly, it is really starting to frighten me what she is becoming. Anyway, here goes....

    "Do you believe that people of other Christian faiths are considered true Christians?"

    "I think the Bible is correct in that all of us have one faith and one hope. The Bible does not allow for people to have different beliefs while maintaining one faith and hope."

    Straight from the pages of the Watchtower. This chick is heavily indoctrinated. All I can do is cry.

  • tec
    tec

    ((((Gary))))

    I'm sorry. She came out once though, didn't she? With all the so-called "signs" happening now, she might just be digging her heels in, out of fear, which the meetings might be emphasizing.

    OTWO, I know this is a debate forum. I wasn't asking out of anger or anything; my questions were genuine in wondering how and why you think you know the requirements that a true Christian or other believers should meet.

    Tammy

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Greetings, may you all have peace, and please forgive my long post.

    It would seem to me that if it is possible for there to be "false christs"... and according to the Bible (for those who put their faith in IT) there are false christs... then it must follow... LOGICALLY... that there are "true" christs... [or anointed, as the word denotes]... and thus true christ[ians]. It would also seem to me that if some believe what Christ is recorded to have said is true... i.e., "by their fruits you will know them"... then there will be those whose "fruits" show that they are NOT christians... regardless of what they call themselves, including "christians".

    And while I understand that it might seem unloving to some to state that someone is not a christian (despite their claim to be), if what Christ is recorded to have said regarding "put[ing] those to the test who call themselves apostles, but they are not, and... found them liars"... and "the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan"... is possible... that the same would apply to those who call themselves "christians."

    I mean, I'm just sayin'...

    I have learned that the problem [as to who is a christian/who is not] comes primarily in three ways (although there are other ways, as well):

    First, because most people don't really know what a christian is, at least as far as the Bible sets out (and holy spirit will teach you). They believe that anyone who claims to be a "christian"... based on their belief... primarily "in the Bible", but also "in Jesus" or "the Lord"... is a christian. Because that is what religion has taught them. Like Jeroboam, who went taking from anyone he chose... rather than from the Levites... for priests to serve in the temple at Bethel... the result is that a lot of people have been misled. Which is the purpose of religion to begin with. But a christian isn't one who chooses... but is one who is chosen... and then accepts the invitation. And he/she is not simply one who believes: the Bible itself states that the demons believe. Yet, such belief doesn't make them christians.

    Second, most don't understand what "judging" is. Judging is NOT saying what a person is (based on what he/she may have done). For instance, that one who commits adultery is an adulterer/ess. Or that one who steals is a thief. Or that one who commits murder is a murderer (which may not be the same thing as a killer as, Biblically, the first requires intent and premeditation). Or that one who lies is a liar. Judging is when one says that such one shouldn't be allowed to live... or enter into the kingdom... BECAUSE one is such. For example, a woman caught in the act of adultery was brought before my Lord. Did he tell her that she was not an adulteress? No. He simply FORGAVE her adultery.

    In the same vein, there is nothing wrong with saying that another is NOT a christian... if what comes OUT of such one... or such one's works or fruits... SHOW it. There IS something wrong with saying that such one will die, burn in hell, cannot/will not enter the kingdom, will be "destroyed at Armageddon" etc., for such things. THAT... is judging. Because God shows mercy to whomever HE wishes to show it, even a murderer, thief, liar, or adulterer. Or worse.

    Third, due to the rampant "shutting up of the kingdom before men" done BY the leaders of [so-called christian] religions since the apostasy first began... non-leaders or rebels, in an effort to be "politically correct"... resorted to pretty much calling everyone who goes to church a "christian" (although some do limit it to those who go/belong to THEIR church or religious group). Since the leaders, who were found to be FALSE could call themselves, why can't EVERYONE call themselves so?

    But the TRUTH is that unless one has received the promised holy spirit, one is NOT a christian - one is yet a disciple. That is NOT to say they won't BECOME a christian (by means of an anointing with holy spirit). But a disciple is not necessarily a christian! Judas Iscariot... was a disciple. He believed in Christ - he knew VERY well who he was! He even felt regret after turning him over. Simon (who tried to buy holy spirit) was a disciple; yet, he was REFUSED holy spirit. And MANY of the disciples ultimately left off following Christ... although they had been with him some time. But they did so BEFORE they received holy spirit. Those who remained, however, BECAME christians... when they received the outpouring of holy spirit!

    And, yes, contrary to what some believe and say... two can be true christians (i.e., have received an anointing with holy spirit)... and yet, not agree on a matter. How can this be? Because one or both didn't listen to or consult the Holy Spirit on the matter at issue. However, when the Holy Spirit IS consulted/listened to... both of their spirits will bear witness to the one answer that is the TRUTH. And either one or both of them may get that answer, but the spirit of both will "agree" on it. Because neither will be able to deny the truth of it... if the Truth resides IN them.

    Are there disciples who have not received the promised holy spirit, but who still have discernment and understanding? Absolutely! John the Baptist received the gift of the spirit that is wisdom and discernment. Indeed, he was chosen to pave the way for Christ! Yet, Christ said that a LEAST one in the kingdom would be greater than John. Why? Because John is not among the kings and priests... as he was not alive when holy spirit was first poured out - at Pentecost!

    But they, too, can be "lovers of truth". And for some it just may be that they have not yet received the invitation... did/can not hear the invitation... have not accepted it... or haven't developed the faith to hear at all, yet. As Christ is recorded to say, "He that is not against you is for you." So, such ones would be considered like the man who went around healing others in the name of Christ, but did not literally walk with the apostles/disciples. He proved himself to be a disciple by HIS love and good works (in casting out demons and so unburdening others).

    We live in a world where many who profess to be "anointed" raise themselves up over God's household and sheep... and seek and take prominent positions for themselves in the world. They have religious degrees and related titles and/or are put over (or put themselves over) "flocks" and "congregations" by [other] men, etc. Since they receive some sort of compensation, however, even if it's minimal food and shelter, they are "hired" men. Because they are paid for their services... in some form or fashion... whether from the donations, contributions, and/or proceeds received FROM the flock/congregation... or proceeds from things like magazine/book placements, appearance fees, book royalties, what have you.

    Christ, however, is recorded to have said, "You RECEIVED free; GIVE free." If, then, what they have they received IS from the Holy Spirit... they received it FREE... and so have no grounds to take a "wage", even minimally, or indeed anything from the flock/congregation (other than perhaps a random, non-recurring gift). Rather, they are supposed to GIVE to the flock/congregation, FREELY... from their gifts (of the spirit). Even food (which GOD provides, through Christ). Although some in the congregations later GAVE so that others would have... they did so out of their OWN compulsion and leading of the Holy Spirit; however, the 12 did not ask (or take!)... or take up donations... to feed the crowds that followed them or help the poor among them. They accepted what was given on behalf of the poor... and made arrangements for it to be equitably distributed. But they never asked for any of it or took any for themselves.

    Now, I realize that there are going to be those who might "tear their outer garments" and "weep and gnash their teeth" over what I've shared here: "Just who does she think she IS"??? I would say to such ones, first, that I am only a servant... and one who has vowed to tell the truth at to these things, even if it makes me... ummmm... unpopular. I do not mean to disregard ANYONE or put anyone down, not at all. I would also say, however, is that religion takes a similar position when they are told the truth, too. Particularly the WTBTS... who believe themselves to be the organization of the "faithful and discreet slave." It is understandable that some might have issues with someone saying there really are true christians... and false christians... and so-called christians... and just disciples. The truth is not always easy to take. But lies lead down a very dark road... one which is often hard to return from. Unfortunately, many... indeed, most humans... prefer the lie over the truth. They prefer to have their ears tickled and hear pretty much only that which they agree with. It is the human nature and condition, actually, and why religion even exists and has gotten away with what it has: because earthling man really wants it that way.

    I hope this helps and, again, bid you all peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    They pray and hope God will fix the car or their own health, but they revolve their world around the idea that God's will is being done.

    That comment appears to be based on the assumption that a true believer believes every facet of their life is controlled by God, Jer, which isn't the case, at all. At least, not as to TRUE true believers. If that were the case there would be no free will, but only God's will. True, they tend to want God's will to be done... well, most of the time (sometimes their own will does get in the way). But that is the CHOICE they make; the Most Holy One of Israel does not MAKE them want His will to be done.

    If what you're asserting is true, however, then my Lord would have gotten involved in the inheritance division business between the two brothers who asked him to intervene. He didn't, though, but told them it wasn't any of his business.

    As for health, I am a diabetic, as you may know. But I don't ask God to fix my health (although I do thank Him for every day that I live still!). Because I know that the flesh is of no use at all and that it has sin and death in it, and that, as a result, I may (no, will!) have tribulation... in it (my flesh). As well as between my spirit and my flesh from time to time. As well as tribulation with the car... house... kids... country... boss... job... neighbor... brother... spouse... money... whatever.

    But we weren't promised a rose garden now - NOW we are simply invited to take up OUR "torture tree", get under His Son's "yoke" (which will help us carry OUR load - and it DOES!)... and follow him. It is not in THIS life that we are promised complete intervention, perfect health, and eternal life. In this one we are only promised that He will not allow to be put on us more than we can bear. It is in the NEXT life that we are promised intervention, perfect health... and eternal life.

    While we do live in the world today... and live today... we don't just live FOR today.

    I hope this helps.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • maksym
    maksym

    I think many people claim to be a Christian and the title is used by many peoples. To me there really is no such thing as a True Christian or False Christian. You either are a Christian or you are not.

    The other issue is we need to have a working definition of what a Christian is in order to classify people if they are or are not Christians. Here is where it gets sticky and may seem a little biased. But I will put forth one that is better than the dictionary.

    I believe we need to define a Christian with a definition based on historicity of the term and what the general consensus of today is. It should be taken from the majority of the group to define itself both now and historically. If we use this method we can define a Christian based on several things all Christians in the mainstream have in common.

    Primarily the definition of Christians historically has generally fell into those people believing in the Nicene Creed. Even today with over 30 000 different denominations the creed has the foundations of faith for those people that identify with one another.

    ‘The Nicene Creed’ contains twelve fundamental statements, essential to the Christian faith. These are:

    1. The fundamental nature of God –Three distinct persons and yet one God;

    2. The eternal God, the Son;

    3. The true divinity of Jesus Christ;

    4. The salvation of God brought through the incarnation;

    5. The suffering, death and burial of Christ;

    6. The Resurrection of Christ from the dead; (Jw's only believe he was raised a spirit creature and not with a fleshly body)

    7. The ascension of Christ to His Father in heaven;

    8. The expected return of Christ to this world;

    9. The true divinity of God the Holy Spirit;

    10. The nature of the Church – One, Holy and Apostolic;

    11. Forgiveness of sins that comes through baptism;

    12. The Resurrection of all people and eternal life.

    Although not everyone goes by the Nicene Creed exactly as it was originally written the above principles are held in belief amoung the majority of Christians today in whole. Although some portions contain elements that are not adhered to by some protestant churches, it is true that all they hold the view of Christ as the same. All the ones marked in colour are not a belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims or Buddists or Unitarian churches.

    Acts 11:26 tells us that it was at Antioch that they were first called Christians. Today it is modern day Damascus. Those early churches are still there. Look up those churches and see what they were like.

    While my answer to your question will be rejected by some, one must be start with a common ground to define themselves and historically Christians have always sought to preserve a teaching and faith in the above. Any deviation from this and others were not called Christians but were referred to as heretics, Arius being an example.

    Based on this, the Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians nor will ever be unless the change their teachings. Of course everyone is welcome to redefine the term and then mold themselves into fitting that definition.

    Those that believe in this definition would be over 1 billion Roman Catholics, 350 000 Eastern Orthodox and probably an estimated 500 000 protestants of various sects. This number represents probably about 97% of all those claiming to be Christian. These principles of being a Christian, as illustrated above have also been written about historically and extensively since the first century. This puts the number as being astronomically high and defendable to all times.

    This is what is meant in saying, "he who believes in the Christ.....".

    God bless BrotherDan and may the Lord Guide you in your journey.

    In Christ

    Maksym

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