Are you a TRUE Christian?!? (page 3)

brotherdan

When your car breaks down, you pray and wait. No calling the mechanic with a tow truck.
When you have a serious disease, you pray and wait. No medical interventions.

I've gotta disagree with you there. The "wait on Jehovah" tactic of the Watchtower is not biblical.

Time after time in the Bible, people pray and then they take action. That is called, "Asking for a blessing." No Christian is supposed to pray and then do nothing. You are to pray for guidance and then do what you feel is right according to what God would WANT you to do.

You will find very few Christians that will have a problem and then advocate praying and doing nothing about the actual problem.

brotherdan

And not JUST Christians, but people of most faiths...

SweetBabyCheezits

Dan, what did you think about TheraminTrees comments in the video regarding the source of Christian faith? I thought it was an interesting side point.

brotherdan

"True Christians have a faith in Christ that is not swayed by reason" - This guy beings the video.

This view of the Christian he was apparently talking to, I assume, is based on the thought that according to Eph 1, all of the elect were chosen before the creation of the world.

However, bringing in "reason" into the question does not make sense. If someone said that a Christian is not "swayed by reason" that person would be wrong. I believe a Christian should ONLY be one based on reason. You can QUESTION my reasons or my ability to reason, for being a Christian, but if I don't make that decision based on reason, then I have no business being a Christian.

He also goes on to mention that the only reason you put your faith in Christ is because of "human beings". This is an incredible fallacy. But I put forth this: Why do you believe in the Big Bang? Did you put your belief in that because of your own research and calculations? No, those calculations were made by...human beings. You have faith that the Big Bang happened (which I lean towards believing myself) because human beings have done the calculations and theorize that this seems to be the most correct theory. It seems to be reasonable. VERY LITTLE of what we know individually comes from DIRECT knowledge we have from our OWN calculations. The conclusions largely come from...human beings. We learn and accept as truth the things that we learn at school. It makes sense to us. But it comes from "human beings".

Also, he uses the common atheist approach to side step any REASON and use a fallacy that theists believe in God just because "he knows". He obviously is using Thomas Paine as his template. He uses the example of George and person X. But he goes on to say that he is told by George to believe in person X. He does not mention that there would be any REASON to believe in person X. For example, belief in person X would reasonably give a CAUSE for the beginning of the universe. What "caused" the Big Bang? Science cannot answer that. Creation can. GOD caused the Big Bang. According to atheists, what CAUSED the Big Bang?!? NOTHING! It was a random event. Which sounds more reasonable? An intelligent design? Or a random set of events? I think REASON stands on its own here...

To conclude, he also finishes by continuing the fallacy that "true" believers are not to question faith. This too is not true. We all should know what we believe and why we believe it and KEEP ON TESTING as to whether we are believing truth or lies.

Cheeze, you have a PM. But please respond on this post.

White Dove

I was absolutely a true Christian while a JW.

I fell in love with Jesus and everything he did.

Tried to emulate his life in mine.

Then, the kicker: I started to compare other JW's and our teachings to Jesus.

They didn't add up. Why not celebrate his birth like the angels did? Why make a mountain out of a molehill about the stake v. cross, when that's not the important thing?

Why treat those who cannot pioneer or are poor like crap? Why idolize pioneers and elders? We do, too, have a layity! What about the prodigal son?

I think that true Christians would eventually do what I did: get out.

I'm not a Christian at all now, but do try to follow the Golden Rule and Wiccan Rede to the best of my ability.

SweetBabyCheezits

Dan, I say this with respect for you as a fellow former JW but... did you watch the youtube video on mute or something? It's like you fired from the hip and sprayed bullets all over the damn place.

TheraminTrees said the idea that "TRUE Christians have a faith in Christ that is not swayed by reason" was something other Christians would use to accuse him of NOT being a TRUE Christian before he deconverted. He was quoting them. It wasn't his assertion.

He also goes on to mention that the only reason you put your faith in Christ is because of "human beings".

Why do you believe in the Big Bang? Did you put your belief in that because of your own research and calculations?

I have a high amount of confidence in the scientific method and, therefore, humans.... or at least to the extent that they apply that method. So there's no lack of congruence between what I claim (limited trust in humans who apply this method) and that which is demonstrable.

Why do I have this confidence? Because I can observe direct links between the scientific method and its achievements. Not to oversimplify, but for me it comes down to cause [following the scientific method] and effect [skin cell gun].

But TheraminTrees notes that most Christians claim to have faith in GOD. He then goes on to illustrate the disconnect in that logic, showing that their faith is really in HUMANS. (Or one might argue that this is only until they get their revelation.)

SweetBabyCheezits

He does not mention that there would be any REASON to believe in person X. For example, belief in person X would reasonably give a CAUSE for the beginning of the universe. What "caused" the Big Bang? Science cannot answer that. Creation can. GOD caused the Big Bang.

This has little to do with the point of his illustration, which was that Christians are trusting humans("reason" or not) instead of god, but I'll address it anyway.

Suppose the Person X in this illustration is actually Santa Claus. As a naive child, there is a REASON for him to believe in Santa: his parents told him of Santa and there are gifts under the tree on Xmas day. That doesn't mean Santa Claus, specifically, is the cause of those gifts. You may call the gifts "evidence" but they only suggest - in this case - that *SOMEONE* put gifts under the tree. Yet the child is still putting trust in his parents when they tell him that SANTA left the gifts.

Also regarding that *SOMEONE*.... I can entertain the notion of some intelligence that was ultimately responsible for our consciousness... but, if so, I'm as confident this "god" is not the one described in the Bible as you are confident the Watchtower is not dispensing "food at the proper time".

What "caused" the Big Bang? Science cannot answer that. Creation can. GOD caused the Big Bang.

There are an infinite number of questions science has yet to answer about the universe. But 100 years ago, science could not land a man on the moon, either. Let's not get hasty.

And for you to say "creation can answer that question - GOD!" is like saying, "we know how many grains of sand are on the coast of Florida - 349!" Yes, it's an answer, but with far too little thought. And simple logic should tell us that we missed the right answer by a long shot. But who knows exactly what it is?

To conclude, he also finishes by continuing the fallacy that "true" believers are not to question faith. This too is not true. We all should know what we believe and why we believe it and KEEP ON TESTING as to whether we are believing truth or lies.

Again, Daniel, this was not HIS assertion. He says that is the attitude of some Christians toward those who deconvert to atheism.... and also the attitude of some atheists toward those who convert to Christianity. He then explained WHY it is ridiculous for individuals in either group to apply the No True Scotsman fallacy.

SweetBabyCheezits

BTW, Dan, let me think about your PM proposition. That's an interesting idea.

sabastious

Awesome post dan and I think you just invented a new type of measurement!

If someone puts the word "True" in front of their Faith's name they are selling snake oil; An easy way to distinguish the crazies from the less crazies, or even maybe the sane!

-Sab

OnTheWayOut

When your car breaks down, you pray and wait. No calling the mechanic with a tow truck.
When you have a serious disease, you pray and wait. No medical interventions.

I've gotta disagree with you there. The "wait on Jehovah" tactic of the Watchtower is not biblical.

Don't even give credit to JW's for that. They call the mechanic or take the intervention unless it's blood, then they die.

I guess Brother Dan is a typical Christian. You probably pray, giving credit to God and/or Christ for the field workers picking the food, the grocer delivering the food, Brother Dan himself for earning the money to buy the food, Sister Dan for cooking the food. Same with the medical intervention. "God, please cure me. But just in case you don't, I put my trust in the experienced doctor and modern medicine to intervene in Your plan for me."

Sorry, I don't debate with the likes of you on this. I already know you aren't a serious believer but a believer-of-convenience, so why should I debate you as if you are serious?

Are you a TRUE Christian?!?

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