I don't think she will shun you. You were afterall "just" a study. I think she will just keep hoping that you come around. I don't think anyone thinks you were fishing from the company pond or anything, it is what it is, and now you know the real deal with them, consider yourself much more educated about another thing now! Hang in there, you sound like a reasonable guy.
CO will sit in on my "study" this week: any suggestions?
Ask the CO, how are the leaders of your organization different
from the Pharisees and Sadducees that abuse the people. My
life is at stake, so tell me why should I trust these men when
they have been so wrong in the past.( 1914, 1975, etc.)
Interested one, Sorry to have assumed. I'm glad you've been honest. My guess is that if you continue as you have been with the CO he will recommend the study be terminated.
Peacefulpete, No problem. I appreciate when people point out things that make me check myself. After I read your post, I asked myself if I was being honest with them. I went back to the very beginning when they asked what my purpose was for meeting with them. I was actually quite indignant at the first study and said, "well, since I have been 'turned over' and can't even talk with my friend about this, and since it looks like you corral your women, I want to see exactly what is going on with you people." They said ok let's do it. So, here I am. Thank you so much for the "12 apostles" question. I'm curious how they respond. If the CO terminates the study, then so be it. One thing though is that I don't act like a jerk to them. I simply ask questions & point out things that don't add up. If the CO terminates the study, my conductor will have to live with the fact that it was terminated, not because I was beligerant, but because the org's answers were not satisfactory.
InterestedOne -- wow, what a catch you would be for this "Sister" if only she weren't a brainwashed JW. She'll probably end up with some "Brother" and live a fairly miserable life, waiting for the end of this old system of things. If only she knew what kind of rare guy you actually are and what her life really could be like. So sad!
Thank you laverite :)
Oh, also I just looked up the "12 apostles" question in 1 Cor 15:5. It looks like some commentators explain it by saying the early Christians referred to the apostles as "the twelve," even though Judas had died. It was just an appellation. See:
The 12 answer generally given is that the "12" was referent to the group of Apostles regardless the number of members. They may know how to answer that one but maybe not. However for reasons too many to post now, the best solution seems to be that the writer here was not familiar with the Judas betrayal story as it was yet in formulation by the writer or editor of Gospel Mark. To him Jesus was betrayed by the dark powers in heavenly places.
Good to know. Even if they know the standard response, bringing up the question and receiving that response will allow me to simply let them know that deeper research has been done that leads to a different explanation. Do you have verses that indicate the writer thought Jesus was betrayed by the dark powers in heavenly places?
I see you found the usual answer, But compare Mark 16:14 and Luke 24:33 that called them the 11. Notice also that John 20:24 says that Thomas was not present at the same setting. So who were the 11? Judas is dead and Thomas wasn't there. All I'm getting at is that the Gospels and Pauline writings still bear the tracks of a story in development. I didn't suggest asking questions so as to be belligerent, but asking quaetions are generally not welcomed. The CO is supposed to be invited to model studies not 'problem' ones so he may have less patience than your usual conductor.
You could ask how it could be a literal number, since the Watchtower shows there were probably more than 144,000 Anointed Christians in the first century.
40,000 had been martyred by the year 95.
- "Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom. ? Also, it was in this period that John, last living of the twelve apostles, was exiled to the isle of Patmos, from where he recorded the inspired Bible book of Revelation about A.D. 96. Watchtower 1951 September 1 p.516
- "It has been calculated that by the end of the second century 60,000 copies of the major part of the Christian Greek Scriptures could have been in circulation, even if only one in every fifty of those professing Christianity possessed a copy." Watchtower 1963 April 15 p.249
The Watchtower makes the claim that the number 144,000 is literal but that all other descriptors of them are figurative, such as that they:
- are from the tribes of Israel
- have the name of Lamb and Father on their foreheads
- are virgins
- have no falsehood on their mouths
- are without blemish