Michelle- you really need to speak with a Rabbi they don't feel that way, you are spouting Martin Luther's and John Calvin's views of the 'per fidem decipere' or the perfidious Jews.
Is Liberal Christianity Smug and Arrogant?
by leavingwt 95 Replies latest jw friends
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myelaine
dear designs...
I had no idea that I was spouting conclusions that others had already reached...interesting though...kinda like reading the BIBLE TEXT without the watchtower will lead one to the same conclusions that mainstream christianity has reached.
love michelle
p.s. are you guilty of spouting rabbis views without "working the soil" of the OT to dig up any of your own conclusions?
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AGuest
Wow. Lots of "stuff" here... including a couple misinterpretations, a few misstatements, and LOTS of misinformation (may you all have peace!). Only one (which combined all three), however, compelled me to comment:
Jesus on the other hand tells Pharisees he personally will send them to Gehenna for all eternity...
You are mistaken, dear designs (peace to you!). Seriously so. I realized awhile ago that a lot of what you believe... about both christians and Jews... is inaccurate, but what the hey: you believe it and to each his/her own. So long as it doesn't harm me or those I love. This statement, however, sends the very erroneous message that my Lord not only judged AND condemned the Pharisees, but is going to carry out such condemnation himself. You are very mistaken, as to all three.
It's like me saying that you, dear designs... someone who not only don't know but haven't accurately researched as to the subject... hates all christians and will participate in their ultimate demise... based on what I think you said/meant... or someone else told me you said/meant... both of which were totally wrong. Now, that wouldn't be right or fair, would it? Especially when all I had to do is read what you were recorded to have said (which doesn't jive one wit with what I think you said or others told me you said).
I bid you: read the account that you're speaking of because your statement actually amounts to slander/libel. And I know you didn't intend that.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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designs
Shelby- nice broad swipe but look at the texts in the Gospels and the followup in Revelation.
Look at Matthew and the instances of Jesus condemning the Pharisees 23:13-39, Jesus then tells his followers that he has 'All authority" given by his Father to judge 28:18-22; 25:31-41, look at verse 41, who sends whom to hell. You know the other texts as well, he tells the reader who does the sending to heaven and hell, himself.
And don't misconstrue my views on 'christians', they are as good or silly or bad as anyone else on this planet. The challenge is to look at the basis for their beliefs, the NT, study it and realize the errors and omissions. We did that as JWs with our former religion and realized the Society played fast and loose with facts and resources, well so does the NT. Its that simple. The huge problem with Christianity was the destructive wake it left through history based on beliefs taken from a very flawed document. That led to millions of innocent lives being slaughtered. So christianity has a lot of marks against it as a life philosophy and when people proselytize for its cause they need to have the facts about the misrepresentations of Judaism.
So don't get your panties in a bunch over this little school yard brawl, weep for the millions and millions of innocent lives murdered by the 'Christians'.
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Qcmbr
AGuest - please don't threaten me with your 'peace - but if you don't accept my god you'll burn in hell eternally' comments. You are scared - I understand - you think that there really are burning fires of hell that the 'loving' god made for us . I appreciate how comforting it is to think of someone else being tortured for you. I can see how you do not wish to take responsibility for thinking (that's why you like the slave idea.) These are not, however, good ideas to bring to a discussion table where you wish to make serious comments. Peace without any hell to you :P
Christianity and most religions have an inbuilt need for arrogance - religion by its very definition is elitist, stratifying the world into saved and damned, righteous and wicked, clean and filthy. As for smugness, I really rather feel that christianity in all forms has taken rather a beating of late and I don't see very muchs mugness around and I include liberal Christians in the pot for they have been exposed as immoral and inhumane as well. I don't know how modern Christianity - increasingly shorn of its historical institutional protection - can respond. It has been defeated by evolution and has fought a Dunkirk action with Intelligent Design (I am astounded by the way the new 'smart' Christians are quick to scoff at young earth creationists as somehow un-biblical and foolish.) Religion has always played upon the moral ground as though the alternative was depravity and wholesale debauchery but the whole black rights ,gay rights debates, war caused by religion, AIDS/condoms and the scandal of paedophilia in the church has exposed Christianity as so morally corrupt as to be something to be avoided (not surprising when you take your yardstick from an old warrior tribe of animal butchers.)
Where people like me are upset (nay livid) is because we got lied to, as children by those who should have known better, in a shocking collusion between state, church and family. I spend the best part of 30 years paying god for the privilege of believing rubbish, thinking I was not good enough, that no matter how much time and effort I gave it was still worthless and that only through abject denigration of my own desires and will to a god who couldn't be bothered to answer my prayers could I ever hope to have an eternal existence of praising this tyrant. I was an idiot. I will ever be grateful for people of stronger moral fibre and courage than I, to write and say, often harsh, often painful things that made me face the truth.
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designs
Q- good observations.
How do you know Christianity was one collossal Cult in the making. John the Baptist actually warned you 'His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire', Luke 3:17. For those who live in the lala land of Jesus is 'Love' he sure doesn't treat people very well who disagree with him
Kind of makes Judge Rutherford look like a woosie boy.
Cult Inc..
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PSacramento
Oh yeah, after the last couple posts one can see that its the liberal christians that are smug and arrogant, LMAO !!
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tec
The huge problem with Christianity was the destructive wake it left through history based on beliefs taken from a very flawed document. That led to millions of innocent lives being slaughtered.
There is nothing in the NT that gives Christians permission or even encouragement to go out and kill ANYONE. That is someone (s) misusing blame to go ahead and justify their own anger and hatred... certainly not their love for Christ. Christianity as a religion has led to innocent lives being lost (along with the help of kings and politics and ambition - which Christ decries in the NT, 'the least among you is the greatest') But Christ's words have not.
please don't threaten me with your 'peace - but if you don't accept my god you'll burn in hell eternally' comments. You are scared - I understand - you think that there really are burning fires of hell that the 'loving' god made for us . I appreciate how comforting it is to think of someone else being tortured for you.
Shelby does not believe in a hell that tortures people for all eternity, Qcmbr, so her peace includes nothing of the sort.
Tammy
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myelaine
dear designs... you said: "I don't have to be a practicing Jew to know and understand Judaism and that side of my family. What is pertinent to most of these discussions are the claims made by the NT writers who are supposed to base Christianity on Judaism but it is very obvious that they didn't know or in most cases intentionally mislead and lied about Jewish beliefs and practices, Jewish expectations for the afterlife and the lives of ordinary Jews in that era. (post #3413) How do you know Christianity was one collossal Cult in the making. John the Baptist actually warned you 'His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire', Luke 3:17. For those who live in the lala land of Jesus is 'Love' he sure doesn't treat people very well who disagree with him (please see exodus 34:7) (post #3410) We did that as JWs with our former religion and realized the Society played fast and loose with facts and resources, well so does the NT. Its that simple. The huge problem with Christianity was the destructive wake it left through history based on beliefs taken from a very flawed document. That led to millions of innocent lives being slaughtered. So christianity has a lot of marks against it as a life philosophy and when people proselytize for its cause they need to have the facts about the misrepresentations of Judaism."... Christianity is not a philosophy based on judaism it is based on Jesus Christ the Messiah as He is the foundation. While it is true that christianity has woven religious fabric by drawing heavily on types and anti-types found exclusively in the jewish OT. (real God, real people, real symptoms, real prescriptions) + (the real watchmen of God's people were called to fill in the gaps were they not?) - (mature/liberal judaism...ezekiel 13:1-14) = (ezekiel 13:15-16) one thing that I have heard you say numerous times is how christians misrepresent judaism...honestly, is judaism the golden calf?...I would think that the supreme concern would be God and what He has said on any matter...not what the sages and rabbis have interpreted for you in light of the fact that the priest can no longer fulfill his obligation (or philosophy as you call it )to God and the people. love michelle
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AGuest
Shelby- nice broad swipe but look at the texts in the Gospels and the followup in Revelation.
I think that's a REALLY good idea, dear designs (and, as always, peace to you!). I would like to ask, however, that you allow yourself to overlook my bolding, underlining, caps, etc., as they are included only for emphasis. My voice is not raised, not at all. Now, then:
Look at Matthew and the instances of Jesus condemning the Pharisees 23:13-39,
Yes, please, let's start there:
"Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers."
No judging or condemnation from my Lord here. Rather, he simply said that, in essence, they were judging themselves...
“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na? For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOUall the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly I say to YOU , All these things will come upon this generation."
No judging or condemnation from him here. He did ask them how they were going to get around their judgment, though. Seeing as he is the only One who CAN save them... yet, they were unwilling to put faith in him, indeed sought to have him put to death, who were they now going to call upon to get them OUT of the judgment they were condemning themselves TO? I mean, he TRIED to tell them what he meant to Israel, what his value was:
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! Y OUR house is abandoned to YOU . For I say to YOU , Y OU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in JaHVeH's name!’”
But NOWHERE did he judge or condemn them.
Jesus then tells his followers that he has 'All authority" given by his Father to judge 28:18-22; 25:31-41,
He did... and he does have all authority. But you miss a VERY important truth: although he HAS all authority and CAN so judge... he DOESN'T:
"For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked." John 3:17-19
"Y OU judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all. And yet if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me."John 8:15, 16
"However, [Jesus] cried out and said: “He that puts faith in me puts faith, not in me [only], but in him [also] that sent me; and he that beholds me beholds him that sent me. I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness. But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day.." John 12:44-48
look at verse 41, who sends whom to hell.
Not my Lord, dear one:
"... I will indicate to YOU whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·hen´na. Yes, I tell YOU , fear this One." Luke 12:5
Was my Lord speaking of himself? He was not:
"'For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making are standing before me,' is the utterance of JaHVeH, 'so the offspring of YOU people and the name of YOU people will keep standing. And it will certainly occur that from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath all flesh will come in to bow down before me,' JaHVeH has said. '“And they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh.'” Isaiah 66:22-24
"Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1 Corinthians 15:24-27
"... I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:11-15
“I kept on beholding until there were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white just like snow, and the hair of his head was like clean wool. His throne was flames of fire; its wheels were a burning fire. There was a stream of fire flowing and going out from before him. There were a thousand thousands that kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand that kept standing right before him. The Court took its seat, and there were books that were opened. I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season. “I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin." Daniel 7:9-14
As you can see, although authority has been given TO my Lord to judge... he does NOT judge but gives the RIGHT of judging BACK to the Father. It is the type of the account with Joseph (who, although had all authority in both Potiphar's house and Pharaoh's... new his place)... and Solomon, who, although the wisest man [of his time] did not judge [though as king he will COULD have] between the two women but let THEM judge themselves. One did so.
It is because of this HUMILITY... demonstrated in that although he had the RIGHT and AUTHORITY to judge... he does NOT do so... but, rather, extends MERCY, FORGIVENESS, COMPASSION, and LOVE... that my Lord IS the One... the LAMB... who was counted WORTHY to sit on God's throne. And it is this mercy, forgiveness, compassion, and love... that he is teaching to those who belong to him... so that such ones are "subdued" in the earth.
You know the other texts as well, he tells the reader who does the sending to heaven and hell, himself.
Yes, and each time it's not him, but the Father. Otherwise, can you please point me to those?
And don't misconstrue my views on 'christians', they are as good or silly or bad as anyone else on this planet. The challenge is to look at the basis for their beliefs, the NT, study it and realize the errors and omissions.
Yes, but dear one, that's not what you're doing. You're basing your position on what others TELL you the NT states, what Christ stated in it, or what such statements mean or don't mean... rather than asking HIM yourself. In that light, your position is rife with errors. Now, I understand your chagrin against "christianity" - I totally share it. But you're understanding of my Lord... is so way off base. WAY off base.
We did that as JWs with our former religion and realized the Society played fast and loose with facts and resources, well so does the NT.
Actually, while the NT does have some... ummmm... errors, they are mainly with regard to Paul's teachings, particularly as to the Law and women. And while it is true that where Luke may have named an event as occurring in such a way or at a certain time, in contrast to how Mark portrayed it, that is because neither men were inspired and, for the most part, relied on the memory/comments of others. But that in NO way makes my Lord out to be some arbritary judge OR killer!
Its that simple. The huge problem with Christianity was the destructive wake it left through history based on beliefs taken from a very flawed document.
Again, I agree. But THAT is the fault... and will be the responsibility... of "christianity". Not Christ.
That led to millions of innocent lives being slaughtered. So christianity has a lot of marks against it as a life philosophy and when people proselytize for its cause they need to have the facts about the misrepresentations of Judaism.
Again, I agree. But TRUE christianity takes NO issues with Judaism... just as my Lord did not. Indeed, he LIVED by the Law. The only "difference" is that we believe the Law to have been fulfilled by him, in order to open the way for a NEW Law. But it was not the system that my Lord took issue with; it was the self-established leaders of it... who used the Law INAPPROPRIATELY... to mislead those trying to come to God.
So don't get your panties in a bunch over this little school yard brawl, weep for the millions and millions of innocent lives murdered by the 'Christians'.
I do weep, dear one... and if you knew me you would know that I am totally chagrined and embarrassed by what SO-CALLED "christians" do... and have done... for millenia... on the basis of faith in my Lord. They have NO such faith, not at all. They listen to and follow men... to the detriment of others and themselves. They OVERSTEP the commandment of God... to listen... TO HIS SON. Which they do... because they lack faith! They walk by SIGHT, rather than by faith... and because of this are blind... and led BY the blind. They don't SEE how to walk because they don't SEE God... because they don't SEE Christ... because they don't LISTEN to him... because they don't HEAR him... because they have faith IN him.
I only take issue with your position, dear designs, because it seeks to malign my Lord on the basis of very erroneous teachings, practices, and beliefs of SO-CALLED "christians"... demonstrated by their works... and NOT on an accurate knowledge of him... based on KNOWING him. Which can only be done by a union WITH him, through holy spirit. One can read the Bible... and the plethora of theological/secular commentaries about it/my Lord... all day long. All of their lives, in fact. And STILL not come to an accurate knowledge of him... or, by means of him, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who is the TRUE God.
Please, again, do not misunderstand my use of caps - I am in a bit of a rush and so wanted to get this to you, with proper emphases. Where you see caps, if you could allow for italics, I would greatly appreciate it. I am not yelling... I never yell. Those who know me consider me very soft-spoken, so I hope you can accommodate.
Again, peace to you... and I hope this helps!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA