If Genesis isn't taken literally, who's sin did Jesus die for?

by unshackled 106 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    Jesus is not the Messiah, he's not Emanuel

    God did not follow his promise in the continuation of David's kingship.

  • designs

    Why would someone think that their death would save humanity when in Jewish Messianic beliefs that is never necessary nor asked for by HaShem, everything had already been taken care.

    So who really was this character mentioned in the Gospels who has such non-Jewish ideas. Could it be later writers put words in his mouth. When he does preach about love and peace he quotes or paraphrases The Testament of the 12 Patriarchs in Matthew 18, Luke 17.

    'Paul' shows himself to be even more ignorant of Judaism than things 'Jesus' says. Paul draws the Adam illustration, but was this Jewish, no. Ask a Jew about their ancient morning and bedtime Prayers, one of which is 'Ever shall a man bestow loving kindness, even on one who does him harm; he shall not be vengeful nor bear a grudge. This is the way of all Israel'. And Philo, a contemporary of Jesus taught: 'If you ask pardon for your sins, do you also forgive those who have trespassed against you'. Sheds some light on the times and who Jesus was listening to. 'Paul' whoever he was, knew the Hellenistic world would accept a God/Son because of their familiarity with Zeus/Jupiter and from Egypt and the schools in Alexandria.

    The greatest tragedy against the Jews occurs in the Gospels Passion accounts where the clever writers turned the tables on an oppressed and subjugated people with a standing army in their capital and paint Pilate as the sympathizer willing to turn Jesus loose but for the 'evil Jews' who won't let him. Do you smell something horribly absurd here. A despotic Roman ruler delegates to a Jewish council his powers based on a clearly trumped up charge of sedition. Oh please. This makes Watchtower articles look tame in comparison. Well history shows the Bishops won and won big, Jews were slaughtered all over the African, Asian, and European Continents.

    Lies hurt and lies kill. Still the prayer is still said daily about our humanity and the world's humanity: 'he shall not be vengeful nor bear a grudge', not easy when your ancestors were nearly brought to extinction over a lie.

  • Perry

    Did Jesus believe in evolution?

    And he answered and said unto them , Have ye not read , that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female ,

    Did Jesus Believe the Story of Noah’s Ark?

    In Matthew 24:37 He speaks of the end times, saying “As in the days of Noah, so shall also be the coming of the Son of Man be”.

    Jesus was either the biggest, fattest liar and charlatan who ever lived or he was who he said he was. There is NO middle ground here.

  • unshackled

    There are so many spin-off discussions to be had here. Hard to keep it on track.

    For instance...

    Jesus was either the biggest, fattest liar and charlatan who ever lived or he was who he said he was. There is NO middle ground here.

    There may be no middle ground if those are, in fact, two concrete statements. But there are other grounds and questions: did Jesus even exist? is the bible simply the fictionalized work of man with nothing to do with a god? Or somewhere in between?

    Bottom line is evolution is a fact. For those who claim to be christians and accept that fact...how do they continue to call themselves christians? It's a paradox.

    Guess I was wondering if anyone could present a reconciliation of either: 1) acceptance of evolution and christianity, 2) not believing Genesis is literal and christianity.

    Based on the biblical idea that Jesus atoned for Adam's sin...either option chops the legs off christianity.

  • poopsiecakes

    I'm constantly amazed at the diversity here - we've all come out of this toxic religion and some have become die hard atheists and others are still staunch believers and others are somewhere in between.

    Personally, once I started pulling at the thread of the WT and that fabric came unraveled it inspired me to pull at other threads and questioning beliefs I had held my whole life. Like the garden of eden story, the flood and everything down to whether or not Jesus was a real person and if so, whether or not he was the son of god or just a revolutionary thinker or a figurehead for a larger set of ideals in a time of religious turmoil. I've come to the conclusion that we'll probably never know the real truth about who Jesus was or wasn't but so many other things that are considered 'biblical truths' have come completely unraveled for me because of basic logic, critical thinking and a comparison of other religious beliefs that people lived and died for that the bible considers 'pagan'. It just all seems so hokey to me now and more wishful thinking than anything else...

    These discussions are just very interesting to me...carry on

  • OnTheWayOut

    Oh, how I love that God placed so much fake evidence buried in the ground to test Perry's faith. Don't worry, God. He passed.
    Or was it that crafty mega-angel that became "Satan" who was involved in planting fake evidence?

  • unshackled

    Well put poopsie. My path has been similar to your description. I've chosen to scrape to the bottom of the barrel of our indoctrination. Not stopping at verifying if bible is the word of an almighty creator and doing extensive research on evolution. What a dose of reality it was.

    Doesn't mean we can't still engage in biblical theological discussion. The study of religion is so intriguing. Truly interested in how a christian could justify accepting evolution and Jesus atoning for Adam's sin.

  • tec
    The Adam's sin/Jesus atonement storyline is the backbone of Christianity.

    No, it is not - except certainly the ransom sacrifice is the backbone of Witness theology. But Christ is the backbone of Christianity.

    Christ came to do more than die for sins, though there are certainly plenty for him to have died for - Perry got that one right. He also came to give life to those who believe in Him, He came to show us the way to the Father, He came to show us the truth about the Kingdom, and to give us the chance to become brothers with him in that Kingdom. By his obedience, (and he could have chosen not to follow what was written) he showed both his love for his father, and his love for his brothers.

    I think Paul's comparison is just that. A comparison as he is discussing his faith in Christ and the gift of grace and life, compared to the fall of man with Adam.

    Also note that it isn't an even exchange. Even Paul doesn't describe it as such.

    "Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses (many trespasses meaning more than just the one trespass of Adam) and brought justification."


  • unshackled
    The Adam's sin/Jesus atonement storyline is the backbone of Christianity.

    Hi Tammy...this view is not exclusive to the JWs. Granted, it may not be "the backbone of Christianity", but it is a crucial component to the majority of Christianity. That said, your comment is still a shift from the main subject.

    I'm guessing you take Genesis literally...I'm fairly new here, so could be wrong. So...do you believe that Adam really existed and Jesus had to atone for his sin for all mankind? And, if so, do you think one can be a Christian and believe the story of Adam was just an allegory?

  • tec
    So...do you believe that Adam really existed and Jesus had to atone for his sin for all mankind? And, if so, do you think one can be a Christian and believe the story of Adam was just an allegory?

    I can accept that it is literal, and I can accept that it is symbolic. I don't know because I wasn't there, but either way, the message is the same. I suppose that I lean toward a literal take - but even much of that is symbolic. The trees symbolize the things they are representing. The tree of life - life. The tree of the knowledge of good and bad - knowledge of good and bad. I think I look at the things around Adam and Eve in an abstract way. Even the garden of Eden I see as a spiritual place with God.

    (regardless, the meaning of the story is the same - man disobeyed, 'ate' something that resulted in his death, and the first sin entered the world... and it was a sin because he knew better and still ate)

    So I do believe that one can be a Christian and still believe the creation account is symbolic, or a part of what happened during evolution of the universe as science explains it as well. To be a Christian, you simply have to belong to and have faith in Christ. Everything else... well, we tend to mess it up, lol.


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