If Genesis isn't taken literally, who's sin did Jesus die for?

by unshackled 106 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Lion Cask
    Lion Cask

    The Tull contributions are a nice touch, Mad Sweeney, as much as they require a fair bit of invested time to follow through on. I'll watch a couple of the vids once my newbie post quota runs out. Jethro Tull was one of the groups I listened to religiously in university, and Aqualung was at the time my favourite, in particular the bit about snot running down his nose. Love that part.

    Are you folks familiar with the phenomenon of Cult of Personality? When I read what some people have written (in this board generally, not necessarily in this thread) I have the impression that some people in here are living proof that the theory is sound.

    Who do you worship?

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    I believe that God wanted a tyranny on mankind. Satan attempted to liberate mankind from that tyranny (which Jehovah Baghead God was to rule). Being the Almighty Sore Loser he is, Jehovah cut Satan off from successfully liberating mankind by making Satan look like a monster.

    Along comes Jesus. He did exactly the same work Satan attempted--notice how similar Jesus' message, when stripped down, is to Satan's. Being a human, Jesus could simply be murdered for attempting to liberate mankind from Jehovah. And that is what that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag did to Jesus--having others murder him. Obviously, the first people are not going to murder Satan for liberating them from tyranny--Jehovah had to meddle.

    So, after Jesus died trying to liberate us from Jehovah, that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag simply had Jesus' true message twisted into another set of rules and regulations. Now, instead of "You don't need God--you can be like God", Jesus' message becomes "Repent, believe in my sacrifice, and you will be saved". This took all of 40 years and Paul's being confused by Jehovah to twist Christ's real message. Now, the Gospel writers wrote the distorted versions of Jesus' message in the Bible, and that's how we see Jesus dying for our sins.

    Jesus died trying to save us, not to save us. No original sin--just God's tyranny.

  • tec
    tec

    WTW - I think Christ might disagree with your take on things.

  • Lion Cask
    Lion Cask
    WTW - I think Christ might disagree with your take on things.

    Tammy, I have to ask how is it you know this? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it is a bit of a far reaching statement.

    BTW, thanks for the advice on the other thing. It is appreciated.

  • tec
    tec

    Well... a couple of reasons, I suppose.

    One, Christ loved his father, and obeyed his father. So he wasn't trying to set us free from his father, but rather from the people holding us down, burdening us, and from the sins that cause us to be ashamed or lose hope, etc. So if 'Jehovah' (from WTW perspective) represents those people, then I guess Christ was trying to set us free from him. But not from His Father, YHWH.

    Two, Christ told Satan to get away from him, called Satan the father of lies... so I guess I'd have to say that He wasn't doing the same work as Satan.

    Three, we have Satan's own nature, by his deeds, to show us how much he cares for us. He let Adam and Eve take the fall for his doing. He did not help them, or plead for them. Did he stand by them at all? Or did he just incite them to disobey, and then watch as they lost everything that had been good for them?

    Plus... what tyranny? Living forever in a paradise garden? No sickness, no death, no war, no starvation or poverty...?

    Now, instead of "You don't need God--you can be like God", Jesus' message becomes "Repent, believe in my sacrifice, and you will be saved".

    What reason does anyone have to believe that this was ever Jesus' message?

    But the bottom line, Lion Cask... Christ loved his Father, and He showed us His Father (to see the son, is to see the Father). Otherwise... I mean, why would His Father have allowed him to be born at all? Makes no sense that a creator of all things (being a tyrant) would tolerate any disobedience from his angels/son/creations at all.

    (...and no problem for the other thing :) )

    Tammy

  • designs
    designs

    Tammy-

    I guess this gets back to the essential claims of the NT and this thread. Was there a literal Eden and a human couple who committed Original Sin in the way Paul argues.

    Most of the arguments in favor of that position rely on personal epiphany, ie Paul's Damascus experience, several here rely on that to overide the errors of the NT. Now as xJWs that is fascinating because that is what we were, in a sense, told to do when we came across errors in the Watchtower- fallback on the experience of the Worldwide Brotherhood, wasn't that the overiding proof we were suppose have the Truth. You can see why that "feeling" or emotion that anyone can experience is not the best litmus test for Truth.

    The second fallback position of the Fundamentalists is to threaten dissenters with the ultimate wrath of God, again very Watchtower like isn't it- 'Don't believe as I see it then its Eternal Hell or the Second Death at Armageddon'. That is the real tragedy of these religious types.

    40% of the US population still believe in a Literal version of Genesis. Jesus left and he hasn't come back, he's certainly welcome to, nobody is stopping him, but he hasn't and all of the Fundamentalists and Witnesses making up excuses as to why can't change that fact.

    Judaism claims the Messiah only needs one shot at world peace, One trip and its done. "I believe in complete faith each day that the messiah will come".

    We'll see, in the meantime there is a lot to do everyday for each other and for this earth.

    grandpa designs

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    I'm with cantleave and Sab.

    I don't believe in original sin. The Bible stories are basically saying that original sin is genetic. I'm not buying it.

    Punishing all of us for something someone did thousands of years ago is illogical and unprincipled.

    Would any of you punish your daughter for something your son did that he should not have?

    I require proof. Even the Bible says proof is required (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Only if and when science can isolate the "original sin" gene, will I reconsider my thoughts on this.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    WTWizard:

    Here's the scriptural proof for what you said, for the Bible believers:

    "Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you." ~John 17:23

    Jehovah was anything but righteous. Almighty Lowlife Scumbag indeed!

  • tec
    tec

    John 17:25-26

    "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

    Christ knew his Father. He also knew Satan. We can see which writings speak truly about the Father when we look at it all through Jesus eyes and actions. But never once is there any evidence to show that Christ and Satan are playing for the same team, against a tyrant God.

    40% of the US population still believe in a Literal version of Genesis. Jesus left and he hasn't come back, he's certainly welcome to, nobody is stopping him, but he hasn't and all of the Fundamentalists and Witnesses making up excuses as to why can't change that fact.

    Peter explained that God does not want even one man to perish, but all to come to repentance and be saved. So he at least believed that this tarrying was out of mercy and patience for us... and there are people who are praying and who are asking for that. Also, if we recall Sodom and Gomorah, Abraham asked God to relent and show mercy and not destroy them for the sake of even just ten righteous.

    Tammy

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    I don't believe in original sin. The Bible stories are basically saying that original sin is genetic. I'm not buying it.

    The original sin isn't genetic, dear Heaven (peace to you!). We ALL have the exact same free will as did Adam and Eve. We all get to CHOOSE who we will serve, by showing who we obey. The resultant aging, sickness, and thus death that we carry in our flesh, however, as a result of the long garment of skin given Adam/Eve (NOT because of their sin but to cover their NAKEDNESS which was now manifest to them because their eyes WERE opened)... IS genetic. And I would wager that even science agrees with that.

    Punishing all of us for something someone did thousands of years ago is illogical and unprincipled.

    The Most Holy One of Israel isn't punishing us. ADAM is the one who sold us TO the one who punishes us, the one whose "agent" is a "Satan" and "Devil": Death, the last enemy. In contrast, in His abundant loving kindness, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, is the One who gave a ransom... HIS Son... TO Death... to repurchase us back FROM such "punishment." He didn't have to; He could have just let Adam and Eve die... without procreating at all. He did it, however, because of love. Because He LOVED the world... SO much. That He gave His Son FOR the world.

    The alternative (and I say this to all, so may you all have peace!) is that none of us would be here, would we? And while some of us might believe that would have been the better lot (Jude 16), some of us are quite happy to have come into existence... and have our children... and grandchildren... some into existnce. Even some of us who live in third world countries (funny, isn't it, how the murder and suicide rate in the western world FAR, FAR outweighs that in the third world, where people's entire day, every day is spent trying to figure out how to feed their children, even eat themselves... vs. what size turkey (much of which will be thrown out) and what gifts to buy whoever... and at what price... for one particular holi-day... out of several per year...).

    People in third world countries don't complain HALF as much as those of us who live in the western world... those of us who toil... and toil... and toil... when we don't even HAVE to. We do... because we CHOOSE to. We CHOOSE to do the work we do, live where and how we live. Have the children we have. Buy the things we do. We reject the "other" choice... which is to sell our belongings, give what we make from doing so to the poor... and thus throw OFF every "weight"... and simply seek the kingdom. Nope, can't do that... because, well, what would the family, neighbors, co-workers, community think?

    So, we "stab ourselves all over with MANY pains"... and then weep and grind our teeth at God... for "making" us live in such a sucky world. Yet, He better not call down fire and brimstone and wipe us out, either! So cry the little children in the marketplace.

    Personally, I think that if some of US spent as much time doing "good" toward others as we spend on deriding others, including those whose faith in God and Christ was NOT shipwrecked by the false teachings, false prophecies, lies and hypocrisy of some fake-butt religion that we (or our parents) fell for... particularly if we had a part in its leadership at some time... we would probably "see" God, too... and not be so skeptical that it can be done.

    My faith in God and Christ remains not because I am blind but because... finally... I DO see. But it wasn't religion, religious leaders... or the Bible... that opened my eyes. It was Christ himself. Don't believe it? Okay, no problem. Free will. Don't want to see? Again, free will. So be it. But don't get yourself all hot and bothered because some take the same position as to what YOU believe (or don't believe). Otherwise, you really are in the same "boat" as those cults and others who you deride. And that makes you a hypocrite. Which, if you ask any young person (or Christ, if you hear him), is really about as bad as you can get.

    Again, I bid you all peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

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