If Genesis isn't taken literally, who's sin did Jesus die for?

by unshackled 106 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  AGuest

  Hi Shelby I agree with most of what you said, and one thing I love about you, PSac and Tec is that you all focus on the positive aspects of being a Christian. I believe in fundamentally the same things, I just don't see why we need to use a deity in any form to accomplish these positive personality adjustments.

  Greetings, dear Poopsie (the greatest of love and peace to you... and SO hope you have some popcorn standing by!! ). I totally understand what you mean. For some, perhaps that isn't necessary - perhaps they know... and do... such things "by nature." For me, I would be lying if I said that I knew what such "positive" aspects were before my Lord showed them to me. I mean, I thought I knew: I thought I knew love. I thought I knew faith. I thought I knew peace. And joy. And patience. Self-control. Mercy. Forgiveness. But I learned... in coming to know him... that I really didn't have a clue. If I did... it was barely a mustard seed. Now I know... but I still haven't been able to "conquer" as to any of them. So, he works with me. I kind of like that; actually, I am very grateful, if the truth be told.

  When I was coming out of the WT, I never once blamed god and it wasn't because of my negative experiences that I chose to re-examine his existence. What my negative experiences did for me was make me promise myself that I would never treat another person the way I had been treated. Simple as that.

  And that's totally commendable. I never blamed Him either (I was actually rather grateful)... and I made the same promise...

  I also learned a fundamental truth that is in the bible - love others as you love yourself. We all know this principle but the fundamental truth I learned is that it's only possible to truly love others when you love and respect yourself first.

  Now that one I understood before coming out; I was just confused as to why others didn't appear to get it (SA whispers: I am still sometimes a little confused about that now, when I see so many here... particularly those who have been out for some time, yet still don't know how... or why... to love themselves). I get that the WTBTS thrives on guilt and fear... and thus, perhaps some were raised by parents who used such "tools"... and so have feelings of "unworthiness." I think I differ, however, in that I absolutely believe I am unworthy... which is why I am grateful for mercy. But I have learned that worthiness has nothing to do with it. I get (comprehend) mercy... and particularly God's mercy... and I don't consider being a recipient of it... even needing it... it a shameful thing, not at all. It actually moves me to BE merciful when it's upon ME to be so.

  But absolutely agree with you that you CANNOT love others... AS YOURSELF... if you don't love yourself.

  The way I apply that in my life is to (as much as possible) treat others with kindness, compassion and mentally walk in their shoes - all the while being kind to myself as well.

  Yes!

  Too many people and too many religions leave out the 'as you love yourself' part of the equation so you end up with a bunch of people who feel unworthy, blame themselves, hate themselves and put that on the world around them.

  Okaaayyy!??

  The end result is negativity, fear, prejudice in all its forms and a tendancy to see the worst in people instead of focusing on the best aspects of human nature. Yes, people can be cruel and yes people hurt and torment one another in horrible ways. That's on them and perpetuating that because you've been hurt is only recycling the negativity - there is good out there and I believe there is good in just about everyone. Looking for that good IS a choice and it's a choice we have to make every day.

  I agree with most of what you said; I don't believe, however, that there is good in just about everyone. To contrary, people tend to show evidence of just the opposite, given the right circumstances. However, it doesn't MATTER to me whether there is good in them or not: I believe that because GOD and Christ love me AND them... then I am obligated to love them. Regardless of whether they love me. Thus, I don't "look for good" in people - I truly take them as they come... and just love them. Anyway. Because I am them: there is evidence of the opposite in ME, as well! Who, then, am I to judge?

  And some days are easier than others. Not having a belief in god or any other deity doesn't fundamentally help or hinder this process in my opinion...

  Oh, I certainly agree that some days are easier than others! And some people are easier than others - LOLOLOLOL! But remembering God's love for me... and them... as shown by giving His Son... reminds me to always, ALWAYS... treat them as HIS sheep and not my own.

  I hope I've clarified a bit more, dear Poopsie, and again peace to you!

  Now, pass the Jiffy Pop, girl!

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  Biblically speaking, this only goes to cover off those who come from the Adamic line. What of those who came from the other peoples created before Yahweh created Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:26-28)? They do not have this issue of being ashamed of their nakedness, and yet, they too, die.

  Unfortunately, that's inaccurate, dear Heaven (peace to you, as well!). When the Most Holy One of Israel said, "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness..." He wasn't speaking to other human people. He was speaking to other spirit beings. (Job 38:7) One, in particular, in fact: His Son. Proverbs 8:22-31

  Death has always been a part of life on Earth.

  Ummmmm... not quite. Prior to Adam's sin, death only had a part in the spirit realm. Just like Christ is the "Door" through which life entered into the physical realm, Adam is the "Door" through which death entered into the physical realm.

  Genesis 3:22: Then Yahweh God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, with his knowledge of good and evil. He must not be allowed to stretch his hand out next and pick from the tree of life also, and eat some and live forever."

  Yes, "like" a spirit being... which knows both life... and death... and yet lives. Death has no hold on spirit beings. It only holds those of the physical realm - flesh, with its blood.
  
  

  This verse shows that there were/is more than one God and that God prevented Adam and Eve from

  attaining immortality by evicting them from the Garden of Eden to prevent them eating from the tree of life.

  You are absolutely correct in that it shows that there was more than one god - there were MANY gods at that time... and still are. Such gods are merely immortal spirit beings, including cherubs, angels, etc. And, yes, He did evict them from the Garden... to prevent them from eating. But for good reason: if they disobeyed a warning not to eat... yet ate... and then were allowed to live forever, the full rebellion that took place in the spirit realm would have started long before it did. True, it would have also ended by now... but you and I most probably would have never come into existence. Like some, you might decry your life and bemoan that you were made. I don't, though. I am glad to have been brought into existence. While my life has not been free from tribulation (quite to the contrary, actually)... I VEHEMENTY believe that a live dog... is better off than a dead lion. Ecclesiastes 9:4

  Specifically eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad did not kill Adam and Eve. Preventing them from eating of the tree of life did.

  I think it's six eggs in one hand and half a dozen in the other. From my point of view, preventing them from eating from the Tree of Life didn't kill them; it simply prevented them from living forever and they died as a result of eating from the other Tree (i.e., if they hadn't eaten... no need to block them from anything, turn them out, etc.). One who doesn't have access to anti-venom can actually die as a result of the snake venom.

  But I get that you might have done differently (i.e., not put them out), but I would have done just as the Most Holy One of Israel did. I posted a scenario here that would explain why:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/203423/1/No-Need-For-EdenTree-Unless-God-Knew-An-Angle-was

  Now, maybe you're just a more lenient parent than I am, but what can I say: people who are grown enough to make their own decisions... really need to be living in their own house and taking care of their own needs. Particularly when those decisions go directly against a request, warning, directive, or command I've made in MY house.

  So in essence, God lied to Adam and Eve and the serpent told them the truth.

  So, you believe Adam and Eve are alive? Because they would be if they were indeed "like" God. Right?

  OR... you can go with what we do know. That death is a part of life. We all die. Even the animals, insects, birds, plants, microbes, etc. etc., have a finite lifespan and suffer from illness and aging. It is all part of the natural cycle of life on Earth. All of what we know is learned.

  To date and for now, yes, you are absolutely correct. I believe death IS a part of life. I just don't believe it is always was and always will be.

  If you are never taught to be ashamed of your naked body, you will not be. I have seen this first hand. It is a mind-set.

  Oh, dear one, let me tell you: I am a 51-year-old African American woman. Formerly African American girl. And if I was taught nothing else as a young girl it was to be ashamed of my naked body. Seriously, you don't know the half (but I am SURE there are some other "sistahs" here who would agree!). But... I am NOT ashamed of it (well, excluding my "wobbly bits", but that's because of all the media hype, age, etc.). I am not ashamed of it... because it is not the naked flesh that was the issue in the Garden. When Adam/Eve realized they were naked, it wasn't because they didn't have chonies on, dear one.

  The Most Holy One of Israel didn't give them ANIMAL hides to wear... as so many erroneously believe. That is something made up by man because he can't comprehend what WAS given them. They were given skin. Long garments... or "coats"... of skin. Man's skin, not an animal's. Adam's "white robe" was removed and he was given an "unclean" garment... one that had sin and death IN it. And it is this "garment" that we inherited from Adam/Eve.

  Christ, the Last Adam, however, will one day replace such unclean garments... flesh, with ITS blood... with another garment... the CLEAN outer garment that is the "white robe"... the spirit body. Flesh... with GOD'S blood, holy spirit... and thus NO sin or death IN it. In this way, the wearer of such "white" robe will be able to do as Adam originally did, as spirit beings have always done, and as Christ himself did and does: go in AND out... between the spirit realm (the garden and kingdom)... and the physical realm (the earth).

  Adam was created outside of the garden: but flesh with it's blood cannot enter into the spirit realm [kingdom]. So, he was clothed with a white outer garment, a spirit body. In GOD'S image. In this way, he could go in and out between the two realms.

  Christ, took the unclean outer garment that was his flesh with its blood (and thus, its sin... and thus death)... which blood he inherited from Mary... with him to the grave. He buried it... for all who put faith in him. He was then given a "clean turban" and "robes of state"... the white outer garment... by means of which he could enter all the way into the Most Holy. It is this body... the spirit body... which Adam lost... that Christ will return to those who put faith in him.

  In the meantime, we have to make do with the physical body... flesh with its blood... which cannot enter into the spirit realm... and which is in ADAM'S image (after he sinned)... not God's.

  I hope this helps clarify, dear Heaven, and again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  designs

  SA-

  In Judaism Adam is the one who sits at the gates to Gan Eden and welcomes all of his children home. Funny how the NT avoids this tenent. Paul, having flamed out in Judea with his alternate views goes to the Gentile world hoping to win converts by preaching a bigoted and false view of Judaism.

  The NT is just an early form of the Watchtower, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, RCC you name it in Christendom. They all bought in to the Pauline invention.

  False premises, false assumptions = Bad Religion
• 

  poopsiecakes

  awwww Shelby I feel the love darlin!

  Merry Christmas to you and your family and because you asked, here's some popcorn just for YOU!!

  
• 

  Mad Sweeney

  Just curious, designs, are you a currently practicing Jew or are you just a student/scholar of Judaism? Your input on these sorts of threads is great.
• 

  ProdigalSon

  There was a time when I thought everything that went wrong with Christianity was Paul's fault, but now I have to wonder how much of the crap did he really write, and how much was added later and attributed to him. For instance, the WT is one of the last few die-hard orgs that teach Paul wrote Hebrews. Well if he did he must have been doing some serious mind-altering drugs at the time because he was definitely not himself. I say this because in several places, Paul exhibits a gnosis not seen among the other apostles. He clearly refers to the shole story of Sarah and Hagar and the two Jerusalems as an allegory, and yet Christians just ignore this. He's not saying its a literal story that STANDS as an allegory for something else... he's saying its an allegory! Another example is where he says in the letter to the Collossians, 1:8 I think, that this gospel of Christ had already been preached everywhere under the heavens, long before he completed his tour in Europe.

  So, just who wrote the crap like we find in Romans 13? Was that put in there by a Roman Church interested in submission to the state? How much of this whole conflict between Paul and the other apostles really happened?

  So, not to sidetrack the thread, Paul's writings are in the forefront of the whole original sin controversy. I read an excellent book that's free online if you google it, "Are Men Born Sinners" that completely refutes that Paul's writings are proof of original sin.
• 

  Satanus

  'the biggest, fattest liar and charlatan who ever lived'

  Could be, i guess. At any rate, he sinned against the jewish system, and died for it. He died for his own sins.

  S
• 

  designs

  Hi Mad Sweeney-

  No I am not a practicing Jew, I just took a lot of interest in Judaism after I left the Witnesses and for several reasons. Family connection to Judaism on both sides but being raised in a Witness setting I was like a lot of Protestants and Catholics and had a very skewed view of what Judiasm was really all about....sublime ignorance.

  The other part was that things didn't add up in the NT. The arguments presented about Judaism make it appear like God was playing this giant farce or Greek Tragedy and that never sat well. By some serendipitous events I got reconnected with my Jewish roots. A visit to the Chagall Museum in France and a chance to view his Bible Story paintings, a dear Jewish friend passing away and going to his Service and also a Aunt passing away and going to a Orthodox Service set the wheels in motion. Two visits to Museums displaying the Dead Sea Scrolls capped things off, I had to immerse myself in study. All of a sudden things started falling in to place like Dominos.

  Through the aid of a Witness who had gone to a Theological Seminary I was able to put the pieces together on Witness Theology, all of the doctrines that seemed so disjointed coalessed when you overlaid them with the RCC and John Calvin.

  Lightbulb moments are fun

  I felt, for lack of a better word, satisfied and I was able to move on.
• 

  Lion Cask

  Death has always been a part of life on Earth.

  Ummmmm... not quite. Prior to Adam's sin, death only had a part in the spirit realm. Just like Christ is the "Door" through which life entered into the physical realm, Adam is the "Door" through which death entered into the physical realm

  I've been reading your posts, AGuest. I could say they are fascinating, but mostly they are very, very long, and they rely on an apparently unshakable faith in your personal interpretation of the Bible as fact. And the voices you say you hear, but that's another matter entirely. While it is 100% provable (let's say 99.99999999999999999%, just for argument's sake) that the statement "Death has always been a part of life on Earth" is accurate based on overwhelming physical evidence, your statement, on the other hand, is 0% (ok, let's call it 0.000000000000000000000001%, again for argument's sake) provable. With respect, because you assert something to be true and you believe it with all your very being doesn't make it true.
• 

  AGuest

  In Judaism Adam is the one who sits at the gates to Gan Eden and welcomes all of his children home.

  You misunderstand me as disagreeing with this belief, dear designs (peace to you!). I don't, though, necessarily - I know there will be resurrection of the righteous... and UNrighteous... which includes Adham... and so if the Most Holy One of Israel, who shows mercy to whomever He wills, shows mercy to Adham and he IS granted to sit in the Gate and welcome his children home, so be it! Praise JAH that such children COME home!

  You also misunderstand me as having something against Judaism; I do not. Nor did my Lord. He had something against those who misconstrued Judaism and used such misconstruances to mislead, burden, bind, and oppress others who were trying to live up to its teachings. Like the WTBTS does. You also mistake me as someone who puts faith in the NT, indeed, in the Bible. Again, I do not. Since I have tackled that subject on many, many occasions, however, I won't do so again here but simply invite you to read some of my previous posts on the subject.

  You, on the other hand, apparently, have an issue with Christ; I do not. He was a Jew. I am a Jew (by blood through Benjamin). I do not dismiss the Old Law but do believe it to have been fulfilled... and replaced with a new Law. And that is my prerogative, dear one.

  You take issue with Paul. I have taken great issues with Paul... and/or whoever wrote what is often attributed to Paul. The Bible is not my "guru"... and I only quote it for those who put their faith in it. My faith is in the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. I neither look for, ask, or need your agreement, approval, or corroboration... as my faith isn't based on what I read [in the Bible] or was told by others... other than that One himself. Don't believe it? So be it. You have free will to believe... or not believe whatever you will. As do I.

  He clearly refers to the shole story of Sarah and Hagar and the two Jerusalems as an allegory, and yet Christians just ignore this. He's not saying its a literal story that STANDS as an allegory for something else... he's saying its an allegory!

  You misunderstand Paul, dear ProdSon (peace to you, as well!). He was in fact saying that the literal story stands as an allegory for something else because he believed himself to be an actual descendant OF Abraham. Otherwise, how could HE have been a Jew... and thus, Abraham's "seed"? That he believed the account to be literal is born out in his LATER words to the Romans (recorded at Romans 9:6-18). The "problem" with Paul is, as Peter wrote, he wrote some things "hard to understand." Part of this was because it took some time for Paul to work through, out, and beyond the "Pharisee" that he trained all his life to become... and had become. Technically AND literally. So, if ones reads his letters... in the order in which they were written... one will see a progressive "enlightenment" come over him and movement AWAY from his former Pharisaical leanings And yes, one will also see that some of what is attributed to him was actually written by others... such as Silvanus, et al.

  But since you brought up the allegorical reference, please know that while the two "women" DID stand for two covenants, they also stand for something else: the spirit realm and the physical realm... which Paul did NOT explain here. Abraham had two sons... one by his free wife, Sarah... and one by his slave "wife", Hagar. Because Sarah was free (and not a slave)... her child, Isaac was also free... and the rightful heir. Because Hagar was a servant (and thus, not free)... her child, Ishmael, although greatly loved by Abraham... could not be their heir. Hagar's son, Ishmael, was born in the manner of the flesh - she and Abraham copulated and conceived a child. Sarah's child, Isaac, however, was born as the result of a promise. She was well past conceiving age and was only able to HAVE a child because the Most Holy One of Israel promised her she would.

  "Sarah"... is the spirit realm... the Woman of John's revelation and the free wife of God. Her child... "Isaac"... is the Christ, the free child... born due to apromise and not due to the flesh. He was taken from her "womb"... the Ark [of the Covenant]... and later given the body of a free one: spirit, with God's holy spirit as its blood. Thus, it can go in and out between the two worlds. Because he/his body is free. Since HE is free... all those "born" of HIM... are free also.

  "Hagar"... is the physical realm (earth)... and the slave "wife" of God. Her child... "Ishmael"... is Adam, the slave child... born in the manner of the flesh. He was taken from her "womb"... the dust... and later given the body of a slave: flesh, with its blood. As a result it is bound (enslaved) and so can't go in and out between the two worlds. Because he is no longer free... because the body he received wasn't free. Since HE wasn't free... all those born of HIM... aren't free either.

  This, too, is an allegory; however, it is based on a true account, the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Hagar, and Ishmael... people who actually lived and are the direct ancestors of Israelites, Jews, Arabs, Muslims, and many others.

  I hope this helps and, again, I bid you both peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA