by pr0ner 62 Replies latest jw friends
Reniaa said:
The apostles had no problem condemning false celebrations around them why should I. It is not a kindness to accept false celebrations that Jehovah himself hates.
Colossians 2:16: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Isaac
The principles Paul.introduces under Christian freedom like with food which is a provision from God but can be misused in idolatry it also deals with their change from being Jews and making allowances for those specific celebrations that Jews did as God's people. It is in no way a license to bring in pagan idolatrous celebrations which are universally condemned in the Bible. As usual the bible is just a Big loophole for you to twist to your own desires.
The Jews/Israelites tried to make=over pagan celebrations and idols to Jehovah and things didn't go so well for them. exodus 32:4-10, 2 Chron 33:15-17, Deut 12:29-32
Paul condemns the idolatry of the nations around him quite openly! There is no acceptance of pagan ways and practises, quite the contrary.
hi heaven
Again note the context he is talking about Jewish celebrations not pagan ones the allowance was specifically only for past celebrations that Jews did under Jehovah as God's people.
None of these scriptures mention accepting pagan practises or making them over to Jehovah as acceptable it is simply read into them by the wishful thinking of those that want to justify false worldly celebrations.
Reniaa said:
Isaac
The principles Paul.introduces under Christian freedom like with food which is a provision from God but can be misused in idolatry it also deals with their change from being Jews and making allowances for those specific celebrations that Jews did as God's people. It is in no way a license to bring in pagan idolatrous celebrations which are universally condemned in the Bible. As usual the bible is just a Big loophole for you to twist to your own desires.
My reply: Context weighs against the Wt assertion that Paul was speaking solely of the Jewish feasts, as Paul does not mentions which days he is speaking of and he addresses the congregation at large- which would have newly converted gentiles from Rome who observed their days. Paul brings out that the issue is not to judge others by what days they observe, Everything you assert above is not at in in the account. Thus, like most of what you say is more baseless assertions. By the way, even accepting the WT interpretation of ROmans 14 I then ask why the WT has taken away from its members the freedom that they admit paul gave them? A JW celebrating one of the Jewish feass would be Df as an apostate just as quickly as a member celebrating Christmas.
Reniaa said:
The Jews/Israelites tried to make=over pagan celebrations and idols to Jehovah and things didn't go so well for them. exodus 32:4-10, 2 Chron 33:15-17, Deut 12:29-32
Paul condemns the idolatry of the nations around him quite openly there is no acceptance of their ways and practises quite the contrary.
My reply: Again more baseless assertion and concepts comepletely absent from the account. You are talking BS again- show me where the Jews tried to make over a pagan celebration and such an issue is dealt with. It is not there...just like your thinking ability.
Reniaa said:
hi heaven
Again note the context he is talking about Jewish celebrations not pagan ones the allowance was specifically only for past celebrations that Jews did under Jehovah as God's people.
My reply: Why has the Wt taken this freedom away from its members- since even you admit that it is given?
Isaac
Given the wholesale condemnation of pagan practises and idolatry in the bible, reading it into scripture to obtain a loophole is just plain silly.
Whenever Paul had dealings with Gentiles it was noted they gave up their former ways and religions, getting rid of idols and false worship he didn't give them a make-over instead. Paul got thrown out of cities because the Shopkeepers and business hated that newly converted Christians stopped buying the idols and ritual items from their former beliefs. Sound familiar!
How upset would the shopkeepers and businesses be if everyone stopped buying the Christmas paraphernalia?
Reniaa said:
Isaac
Given the wholesale condemnation of pagan practises and idolatry in the bible, reading it into scripture to obtain a loophole is just plain silly.
My reply: Given the Paul's plain words on the observance of days- and he was obviously speaking to the whole Roman cong, which would include converted gentile who observed days considered pagan under Jewish law- reading into scripture bans on holidays to support Wt law is just plain silly.
Reniaa said:
Whenever Paul had dealings with Gentiles it was noted they gave up their former ways and religions, getting rid of idols and false worship he didn't give them a make-over instead. Paul got thrown out of cities because the Shopkeepers and business hated that newly converted Christians stopped buying the idols and ritual items from their former beliefs. Sound familiar!
My reply: Previous ways- so far as looking to Jesus and serving Jesus..in realizing the other Gods were nothing. He also made a very clear staement about days- the important thing is the spirit in which a day is observed...because observing days was not wrong.
Reniaa said:
How upset would the shopkeepers and businesses be if we all stopped buying the Christmas paraphernalia?
My reply: Irrelevant! How upset would the governing body be if the members stopped taking the WT mags?
Reniaa, you have not made any valid points in this discussion, but I would like to ask my question again:
Since the WT asserts that Rom 14 was speaking specifically to the Jews regarding the observance of the Jewish feast, why has the governing body taken it upon themselves to take this freedom away from its members? A Witness who observes one of the Jewish feasts would be Df just as quickly a a member who celebrated Christmas. Why has the org taken the freedom away from its members that even they admit Paul gave in Romans?
Hey Isaac, please keep her talking. Doubting lurkers are leaving the org right now thanks to her posts.
Things Reniaa has just admitted that it's ok for her to do, even though it's against the "FDS" instructions:
1) celebrate jewish holidays
2) associate and debate with disfellowshipped apostates
Keep on Reniaa...you are doing great. Anything else you would like to discuss?
I feel sorry for the sister; going from the typical mind numbing 30 second brush off to a serious decision is default at best. I wonder how she would have done if she was able lay in wait for someone to come to her door to jump on.
