by Botzwana 44 Replies latest jw friends
dontplaceliterature:
Most of your questions will be answered in Ray's second book, "In Search of Christian Freedom". From what you've written, here, I think you'll enjoy his second book even more than the first.
You made a comment about how "programmed" JWs are. Well, when you read Hassan's first book, you'll get details on Why/How.
Debator, what a bunch of crap! You don't know what you're talking about, read the book with an open mind... Oh, that's right, you're still brainwashed by the WT cult...
Ray Franz told it like he saw it and lived through it, and it all rang true for me when I read the book (well actually both of them I downloaded them from commentarypress.com in PDF format too).
I'm very thankful that brave people like Ray Franz, and Ed Dunlap, and also several Spanish couples from that time at Bethel had the courage to speak up about what was happening there and the hypocrisy of people who claim to be God's only Channel on Earth.
DPL: I wish i had time right now to make a more eloquent reply. I had been hoping you would write back with your experiences; not because i have anymore interest in you changing your mind than you have in me, but because i have so many times the past 2 years wondered what a reasonable but believing JW would get out of reading Rays book.
I would recommend you to start your own topic with this post so more can see it and comment on it.
Congratulations! Your gonna get a ton of book recommodations still, but this is pretty much all there is to the "apostasy arguments" :-).
ps.
i dont have firm ideas either way on what the bible tell either way on the subject of heaven/earth, but you might find this view of some interest:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/earth-forever.php
bttt.
Dontplaceliterature said
Maybe I misunderstood him, but it seems to me that Raymond Franz believes that everyone who gets salvation will experience it by means of a Heavenly Ressurection. I just don't think this adds up, wth regard to the Scriptures I am familiar with. Could it be that there is a disconnect in the translation/understanding of the term Paradise versus that of Heaven?
I have no desire at all to live in Heaven. The Scriptures specifically say that God didn't form The Earth "simply for nothing," but rather to be "inhabited." -- Isaiah 45:18
Common sense would tell me that the Earth is not a "Heavenly Springboard" or "Heavinly Testing Station." While I do agree that the number 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is likely/possibly figurative, I just don't see the logic in reasoning that everyone who gains salvation goes to heaven.
You made some very interesting comments and covered a lot of ground. I am trying to work through all this myself. The more I read the more I appreciate that we don't know the full picture and must keep openminded about it. One thing is for sure, the org does not have the Truth and are way too dogmatic to allow themselves to freely seek it. They are too conclusive about their doctrines and are unable to refocus. They have forgotton to look at the source and research with the help of many bible scholars both current and from history.
Someone bumped a thread the other day and I think you may find it helpful. It is titled The 144,000 and the Great Crowd. It is a very well researched paper by a poster called Leolaia and is written in a way that takes into account the current understandings that the JWs have. I printed out her posts and I must have printed at least 20 pages worth. She relies on information from other sources, including quotes from some Jewish book, written a long time ago. I initially had a problem with that but now think it is very logical. Firstly, her interpretation does not rely on these sources but only adds to an understanding. Secondly, because these other manuscripts were written so long ago it would be reasonable to assume that they had a better understanding of concepts that are used in Revelation that we have today. She is not conclusive and she humbly accepts that we cannot be sure of it's true interpretation but she certainly debunks the JWs interpretation and supports her claim clearly and in detail. I have rarely seen anything of this quality which is of the highest degree on a forum. The link is
or you can do a search using the search button with the heading title.
