Thought I'd introduce myself...

by Vidiot 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Vidiot

  I'm "Vidiot", born-in but a three years-plus fader, a six-month-ish lurker (after I initially worked up the huevos to check this place out, I kept coming back for "booster shots"), and would probably be labelled an "apostate" by any JC who bothered to track me down and persuade me to run off at the mouth. I'm up on all the dramarama, I've read COC and and AD, and nobody here needs to fill me in on anything. I do have some "life story" stuff, but it's rather dull (compared to some).

  * A quick shoutout to fellow Canadians Lady Lee and Outlaw (one of the funniest posters I've ever encountered).

  Anyways, the main reason I'm finally announcing myself is that lately there's a few questions/wonderings I've had, and I was hoping that the really deep thinkers here (Metatron, WTWizard, Mary, Dogpatch et. al.) might be able to share their thoughts/opinions/insights.

  1. What with the WTS's - fairly obvious at this point - decline/fragmentation, lately I've wondered if GB2.0 (since they wholly subscribe to the whole "with-us-or-against-us" paradigm) might ever consider taking any kind of blanket "judicial" action/resolution with regards to faders; sift out the wishy-washy, as it were.

  2. Some time ago, I'd read about a sort of checklist that Canadian federal law enforcement had compiled as a means of identifying potentially dangerous high-control groups at their onset, and it happens that a significant phase involved swithching from an urban presence to a more centralized semi-rural or rural presence; a sort of "withdrawal to a compound" scenario. When I read about the WTS selling off the Brooklyn properties and moving upstate, I was reminded of this. Now, admittedly, it's hard to imagine the WTS as becoming a potentially dangerous and violent subversive group (IMO, one of the reason they've survived as a fringe group as long as they have is the fact that the've eschewed armed violence since the 30s, a MAJOR difference between them and, say, the Branch Davidians), but as the "brain drain" continues, and more and more mentally unstable individuals proliferate throughout the heirarchy, is it possible that that may change?

  3. Right-Wing and ultraconservative Christian Nationalists have risen to previously unheard-of levels of power and influence in American politics. Assume for the moment that this will continue, and they actually achieve a significant amount of their socio-political goals (a scenario frightening enough to drive any rational person to drink); as the WTS continues to decline in membership and cash flow (and also due to their common authoritarian nature), is it possible that they might feel compelled to "play ball" in order to survive?

  I'd appreciate any feedback.

  Thanx,

  Vidiot
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  Vidiot

  Oops, almost forgot…

  4. Recently I read a piece on Freeminds (can’t find it now, but I’m sure someone here has a link), wherein the writer claims that he had a Bethelite(?) friend tell him about a conversation with a GB member who allegedly confided that “the Society has it all wrong” and that they had to start from scratch at Genesis 1:1 and basically overhaul the entire religion. As skeptical as I am, I’m wondering if anybody here knows about this, and if it might actually be plausible.
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  Soldier77

  Welcome!

  As for your second post, it was a comment made by a GB1.0 member, Dan Sydlik IIRC.
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  james_woods

  Welcome to the board!

  OK, my take on two points...

  1) - The WTBTS will never, IMHO, associate itself with any pseudo-right-wing survivalist type thinking. They are more like a leftist-socialist group as far as war, guns, and politics are concerned. The only right-wing thing about them is that they are also a large corporation.

  2) - I simply cannot imagine any GB member saying that they need to "start all over at Gen 1.1" in matters of doctrine. IF someone really said that, I would suspect that he would soon become the next Ray Franz.
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  Heaven

  Welcome, Vidiot!

  I think there are basically 3 main reasons why things change with the WTS and they are:

  1) Cash Flow

  2) Legal Trouble

  3) Troubling issues amongst the various members which don't necessarily fall into item #2. An example of this is a decline in membership due to uncontrollable circumstances like aging and death.

  The GB 2.0 has to be very careful how they tread regarding faders and any mass disfellowshippings they wish to exact.

  For example, my father can be considered a fader since his advancing age has made him incapable of performing as expected for this organization. In an attempt to assuage his guilt over his lack of performance, he continues to buy all the publications and donate money. He is still a definite source of cash for them. Booting him out is not in their best financial interests.

  The moves to Walkill and Canada are about money, imho. The Canadian move may also be about political freedoms being curtailed in the U.S.

  And yes, the GB 2.0 will 'play ball' in order to survive. If they can use the Bible to back up whatever they need to implement, all the better. Makes me shudder to think of this.
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  3Mozzies

  Welcome Vidiot

  3Mozzies
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  OnTheWayOut

  Welcome aboard.

  I've wondered if GB2.0 (since they wholly subscribe to the whole "with-us-or-against-us" paradigm) might ever consider taking any kind of blanket "judicial" action/resolution with regards to faders; sift out the wishy-washy, as it were.

  Their new elders manual doesn't indicate any move in that direction. It seems that if they were to do something soon, they would have put it in there. That doesn't stop them from providing some update in a letter or maybe even wanting to keep the Fader Instructions out of the elders manual. They have done stuff before.

  The problem lies in defining a fader. If it's total lack of meeting attendance, then I could go to the memorial and sit in silence and leave right at the end. If it's an inactive status, then I could turn in a bogus report of 1 hour every 6 months.
  
  Another problem lies in defining a fader's "sin" so as to be judicial on him. They would have to elevate the importance of spiritual association or the preaching work to define not doing it as a sin. Right now, they have so many believers that are inactive, they might be afraid to rock that boat.

  Now, admittedly, it's hard to imagine the WTS as becoming a potentially dangerous and violent subversive group

  I go along with the violence part, but not the "potentially dangerous" part. In their own love of persecution, they have been shown to get people upset at them for their blitzing a town with recruiting efforts. The internet is revealing just how dangerous and how much of a hate-group they are. This could backfire on them one day. I mean, all non-Christians and Christians alike are hated by them, fornicators and adulterers and homosexuals are hated by them. Heck, colleges are hated by them.

  I am pretty sure that Hare Krishnas and Moonies were/are not known for violence, but they would be branded as potentially dangerous to many. JW's could get on that list.

  I doubt they are prepared to abandon their "peaceful" stand on violence. It's a trademark they exploit in being "neutral" to war and avoiding bloodshed.

  is it possible that they might feel compelled to "play ball" in order to survive?

  No doubt it could happen. I think "playing ball in order to survive" in Europe led to the UN membership and their doubletalk on blood. They played by different rules in Mexico to survive and thrive. They used to segregate in the U.S. to appease the states.
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  jwfacts

  2. Some time ago, I'd read about a sort of checklist that Canadian federal law enforcement had compiled as a means of identifying potentially dangerous high-control groups at their onset, and it happens that a significant phase involved swithching from an urban presence to a more centralized semi-rural or rural presence; a sort of "withdrawal to a compound" scenario. When I read about the WTS selling off the Brooklyn properties and moving upstate, I was reminded of this.

  That is an interesting point. I did feel that way when I was in Australia's Bethel, which is in a farm setting on the outskirts of Sydney. Whilst mainstream JWs are too integrated into general society to be labelled a dangerous cult, being at Bethel had a very commune cult feel.

  Whilst JW's do not promote violence, they are ideally primed for any change directed by the leaders. It would not take much for a new leadership, or a break away group, to convince members to become a security threat. Look over the previous century at Africa, Germany, Yugoslavia to see how easily normally peaceful people can be incited to violence.

  The Watchtower message presents violence on an almost weekly basis. Witnesses are told that in the past Jehovah used his organisation (the Israelites) to kill humans due to their offensive practices. From childhood, JW's have the picture of surviving mass annihilation of humans at Armageddon as their short term goal. It is only a small shift in mindset to say that the murder of humans preceding Armageddon should be done by both the heavenly and earthly parts of Jehovah's Organisation. If the Watchtower was to declare that a literal violent attack by JW's was required as the start to Armageddon there are people that would follow orders. It would not be possible to convince all Witnesses to follow through on such an order, but there would be the few.

  It is unlikely for the above scenario to occur, as it would spell the end of the religion, but it is a possibility.
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  mouthy

  Welcome to the board.

  Many years ago I remember a couple sued the WT
  It cost them thousands, & they lost .Because the lawyer ( JW)
  kept post postponing ,postponing ,postponing the case & in the
  end the couple couldn't afford to continue .Sorry i cant remember
  their name

  Mouthy
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  flipper

  VIDIOT- Nice to have you here ! Welcome ! I too was a born-in witness ; got out 7 years ago after 44 years in from birth. You ask really good questions. I'll give you my 2 cents worth. For what it's worth.

  1. In regards to your question of the WT society taking " blanket " action against faders/inactive ones - I don't think they would do that as it would piss off many wealthy long time members who have inactive family members and who donate big $$$$$ to the WT society on a regular basis. AND the WT society is good about embellishing their numbers of increase to make it appear that each year hundreds of thousands are being added to the total JW number. If they DF inactive ones or faders in mass amount - they'd be cutting their nose off to spite their face.

  2. I had the exact same thoughts as you did when I heard the WT society was moving their operations up to rural New York. " Out of sight, out of mind " so as to be able to proliferate even MORE creepy publications and behavior and be out of sight of the magnifying glass of the mainstream media of the city of New York . That way if more child abuse , blood transfusion, or other abuses of laws were brought out against them- there would be more difficult access for media members to get to them.

  I imediately thought of David Koresh when hearing the WT society was moving to upstate New York. It's not beyond the realm of reason that if enough wack jobs who are mentally unstable were to be in the upper levels of power in the WT society- something could possibly happen in a severe manner either with violence or the WT society giving instructions for witnesses to all meet at a certain place, or to donate ALL their material assets. NEVER underestimate the power of cult mind control. I've seen it do VERY weird things to my JW family.

  3. Although the WT society certainly IS enamored with their authority and power - I don't particularly see them TOTALLY playing ball with rght wing religions and becoming mainstream. Their teachings are too EXTREME to become mainstream. But looking at their past ; they already have " played ball " as you phrased it by joining the United Nations for a time period awhile back. I think if they " played ball" they would do it incognito, or behind the scenes out of view of their rank & file members . In fact, who knows ? Maybe they ALREADY ARE doing that in a financial sense as they own shares in Rand-Cam which builds military war stuff. So who knows WHAT exactly the financial leaders are doing behind the scenes of the WT society ? It's something to consider. One thing is for sure : WT society has THEIR OWN best interests at heart- not their many members. Take care, Peace out, Mr. Flipper