Thought I'd introduce myself...

by Vidiot 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vidiot

    Okay, thanks for all the replies, ‘preciate it.

    james_woods – “They are more like a leftist-socialist group as far as war, guns, and politics are concerned. The only right-wing thing about them is that they are also a large corporation.”

    I dunno, kinda hard to visualize them as “leftist-socialist”; the old Eurasian Marxist groups of the early 20th Century would have been appalled at what the Soviet Union became, for example. Canada has some minor but distinctly “socialist” leanings, so I have some idea of what I’m talking about.

    I’ve read Bob Altemeyer’s research into authoritarian personality types. In the Western World, it’s an overwhelmingly right-wing phenomenon, and the WTS – although it would never come right out and admit it - is fundamentally authoritatian. I remember once reading about a poll regarding social issues in the US a while back, and it happened to mention that the few JWs who were asked agreed almost overwhelmingly with most basic Right-Wing stances on what the US government should do regarding gay marriage, homosexuality in general, abortion, teaching creationism in school science class, etc.

    It’s mainly why I asked the other question about the WTS “playing ball” with the Christian Right if/when they acquire real political power.

    james_woods - “I simply cannot imagine any GB member saying that they need to "start all over at Gen 1.1" in matters of doctrine. IF someone really said that, I would suspect that he would soon become the next Ray Franz.”

    Soldier77 - ”… it was a comment made by a GB1.0 member, Dan Sydlik IIRC.”

    GB1.0? So he’s passed away? If this came out after he died, it would explain why he WASN’T the next Ray Franz.

    Heaven – “The Canadian move may also be about political freedoms being curtailed in the U.S.”

    Such as? (not being snarky, just curious)

    OnTheWayOut - “The problem lies in defining a fader. If it's total lack of meeting attendance, then I could go to the memorial and sit in silence and leave right at the end. If it's an inactive status, then I could turn in a bogus report of 1 hour every 6 months. Another problem lies in defining a fader's "sin" so as to be judicial on him. They would have to elevate the importance of spiritual association or the preaching work to define not doing it as a sin. Right now, they have so many believers that are inactive, they might be afraid to rock that boat.”

    Hmm; hadn’t thought of that. Now that you mention it, I also remember reading an article in Canada’s “McLean’s” magazine (the one about the Vancouver JW sextuplets); at one point, it mentioned that there was the possibility of a very large number of current JWs who would leave if they felt they could without experiencing “sanctions”. I was surprised at the time, because it had never occurred to me that there might be more XJWs (and nonbelieving - what I now know is called the “conscious class”) than active, believing JWs.

    What if one were “brazenly” fading? ;D

    OnTheWayOut - “I go along with the violence part, but not the "potentially dangerous" part. In their own love of persecution, they have been shown to get people upset at them for their blitzing a town with recruiting efforts. The internet is revealing just how dangerous and how much of a hate-group they are. This could backfire on them one day. I mean, all non-Christians and Christians alike are hated by them, fornicators and adulterers and homosexuals are hated by them. Heck, colleges are hated by them.”

    I dunno, the Southern Poverty Law Center has laid out some pretty clear criteria as to what constitutes a “Hate Group”. The WTS might skirt the edges on some of them, but all? (BTW, my devout JW parents put me through college; Mom has a Master’s degree, in fact)

    That being said, blowback almost always comes to those who react to the short-term, but fail to take into account the long-term effects of their actions. Just my opinion.

    OnTheWayOut - “I am pretty sure that Hare Krishnas and Moonies were/are not known for violence, but they would be branded as potentially dangerous to many.”

    Moonies, sure, but Hare Krishnas? Yeah, they’re weird, but what qualifies them as dangerous?

    OnTheWayOut - “I doubt they are prepared to abandon their "peaceful" stand on violence. It's a trademark they exploit in being "neutral" to war and avoiding bloodshed.”

    Like I said, I think it’s a big part of how they were able to continue as a fringe group for so long, but maybe not. See below.

    OnTheWayOut - “I think "playing ball in order to survive" in Europe led to the UN membership and their doubletalk on blood. They played by different rules in Mexico to survive and thrive. They used to segregate in the US to appease the states.”

    Heaven - “And yes, the GB 2.0 will 'play ball' in order to survive. If they can use the Bible to back up whatever they need to implement, all the better.”

    Damn, I was afraid of that.

    I remember learning about Right-Wing Christian Nationalist/Dominionist movements even before I started fading, and thinking at the time that NO WAY would the GB ever get involved with these people, but then the WTS quoted the Discovery Institute (who, despite what some may think, IS a Christian Nationalist outfit; it’s partly funded by Howard Ahmanson, Jr. – Google him) in an Awake article attempting to debunk evolution, and I thought “WTF?”, so lately, I’ve been reconsidering it (although I hoped I was wrong).

    Heaven - “Makes me shudder to think of this.”

    You and me both, man.

    Jwfacts – “That is an interesting point. I did feel that way when I was in Australia's Bethel, which is in a farm setting on the outskirts of Sydney. Whilst mainstream JWs are too integrated into general society to be labelled a dangerous cult, being at Bethel had a very commune cult feel.

    Yeah, that’s what I thought.

    Jwfacts – “Whilst JW's do not promote violence, they are ideally primed for any change directed by the leaders. It would not take much for a new leadership, or a breakaway group, to convince members to become a security threat. Look over the previous century at Africa, Germany, Yugoslavia to see how easily normally peaceful people can be incited to violence… It is only a small shift in mindset to say that the murder of humans preceding Armageddon should be done by both the heavenly and earthly parts of Jehovah's Organisation. If the Watchtower was to declare that a literal violent attack by JW's was required as the start to Armageddon there are people that would follow orders. It would not be possible to convince all Witnesses to follow through on such an order, but there would be the few.”

    Yeah, I hated myself for suspecting it, but I couldn’t deny what was in front of my nose; one of the things that helped me in my decision to fade was the disturbing realization that the vast majority of R&F JWs were authoritarian “follower-types”. I didn’t want to believe it at first, but when I found that I could actually predict their behavior based on Altemeyer’s research, well…it sure rocked my world.

    Jwfacts – “It is unlikely for the above scenario to occur, as it would spell the end of the religion, but it is a possibility.”

    Maybe in a last-ditch circling-the-drain act of desperation. Remember, some animals will even eat their own young to avoid starvation.

    Mouthy – “Many years ago I remember a couple sued the WT. It cost them thousands, & they lost. Because the lawyer ( JW) kept post postponing ,postponing ,postponing the case & in the end the couple couldn't afford to continue .”

    Funny, I’d have thought that a representative of “God’s Earthly Organization” wouldn’t feel the need to obfuscate like that; he’d just automatically assume he’d win by virtue of possessing the moral high ground.

    Shows what I know, huh?.;)

  • mamalove

    Hope to read more interesting posts from you!

  • Vidiot

    flipper – “You ask really good questions”.

    Thanx. Like I said, I’d been lurking for a while, mostly to see if these topics would come up, but they hadn’t yet, so I figured it was time to swim into deeper waters; when you need to know something, you ask the experts, and as far as I’m concerned, the JWN is where the XJW experts hang.

    flipper – “I don't think they would do that as it would piss off many wealthy long time members who have inactive family members and who donate big $$$$$ to the WT society on a regular basis. AND the WT society is good about embellishing their numbers of increase to make it appear that each year hundreds of thousands are being added to the total JW number. If they DF inactive ones or faders in mass amount - they'd be cutting their nose off to spite their face.”

    Yeah, pretty much jives with what the others have said. In an odd way, I’m disappointed.:)

    flipper – “I had the exact same thoughts as you did when I heard the WT society was moving their operations up to rural New York. " Out of sight, out of mind " so as to be able to proliferate even MORE creepy publications and behavior and be out of sight of the magnifying glass of the mainstream media of the city of New York . That way if more child abuse , blood transfusion, or other abuses of laws were brought out against them- there would be more difficult access for media members to get to them. I imediately thought of David Koresh when hearing the WT society was moving to upstate New York.”

    I’ll try and find that article about apocalyptic groups that I was referring to; there’s something like a 5- or 6-level grading system on a group’s potential for dangerous activities. Granted, they are pretty extreme, and the WTS doesn’t even come close to the later steps (which include the purchase and caching of illegal weapons, various criminal enterprises, etc.) but “goin’ up to the country” is definitely step 1.

    flipper – “It's not beyond the realm of reason that if enough wack jobs who are mentally unstable were to be in the upper levels of power in the WT society- something could possibly happen in a severe manner either with violence or the WT society giving instructions for witnesses to all meet at a certain place, or to donate ALL their material assets. NEVER underestimate the power of cult mind control. I've seen it do VERY weird things to my JW family.”

    Didn’t Barb Anderson mention once that someone at Brooklyn had told her that, in his opinion, Ted Jaracz “wasn’t all there”? His successor’s likely to be a Company Man.

    flipper – “Although the WT society certainly IS enamored with their authority and power - I don't particularly see them TOTALLY playing ball with rght wing religions and becoming mainstream. Their teachings are too EXTREME to become mainstream.”

    Dude, no offense, but right wing religions are in NO WAY “mainstream”. Have you heard Pat Robertson’s or John Hagee’s spittle-flecked ranting? Trust me, those clowns are the epitome of “extreme” religion. Why shouldn’t they be? C’mon, man, this is the 21st Century; extreme sports, extreme fashion, extreme celebrity, extreme porn…need I go on?

    Sorry, just sayin’.

  • flipper

    VIDIOT- Yeah, I hear what you are saying. No problem, no offense taken. Right wing religions are definitely not mainstream , yes, they are Wackjobs - although there are a hell of alot of them, unfortunately . I think THAT is what I meant. That they seem to be proliferating. At least in the midwest states in the U.S. or the Bible belt. And they definitely affect the Republican right wing votes & views sadly. One reason so many propositions get defeated like gay marriage, legalizing marijuana , etc . when it's brought up for vote. Those 2 items even got defeated here in California. And your statement about Jaracz is VERY accurate. There are a lot of sordid rumors about what he was involved with- and I don't think they are only rumors. Lots of truth to the rumors

  • BabaYaga

    Hello and welcome! Great first post... I don't have any answers for you, I just wanted to say "hello!"


  • thetrueone

    Thetrueone from Vancouver BC welcomes you to the forum.

    There are a few reasons the WTS is moving out of Brooklyn, some of this has to do with the high cost of operating there,

    the buildings owned by the WTS that were used for printing are getting old and out dated.

    The many properties owned by the organization throughout Brooklyn have gained a very high value over the years,

    which are being sold creating huge profits as well. Who knows maybe the realization that everything the Watchtower has

    taught and professed openly to the public for the past century has been accepted as pretentiously devised bullshit.

    That main building with the big WATCHTOWER sign on top represents to many as being organized bullshitting done

    in the name of religion. Who really wants to be attached to that, surely not a organization that is proclaiming to be the only

    solemn organization that is being guided by god's holy spirit, religions have to be careful in their self market too after all.

  • Ding


  • yknot

    Just popping in and saying 'howdy'.......

    Great questions, great responses!


  • Heaven

    Heaven – “The Canadian move may also be about political freedoms being curtailed in the U.S.”

    Such as? (not being snarky, just curious)

    Well, ever since 9-11, Americans have had their rights and freedoms removed via the Homeland Security Act. The WTS could be seen as anti-government. With the printing here in Canada, they can print whatever they want provided they aren't overly hate mongering or breaking any laws.

    In the U.S., any American can be declared an 'enemy combattant' by the President of the United States without any evidence and be incarcerated without any contact with the outside world.

    The definition of the term "terrorism" could fit with the WTS. From the "Definitions" section of the Homeland Security Act:

    (15) The term "terrorism" means any activity that -

    (A) involves an act that

    (i) is dangerous to human life or potentially destructive of critical infrastructure or key resources;


    (ii) is a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State or other subdivision of the United States; and

    (B) appears to be intended -

    (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

    (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

    (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping .

    I think the WTS is being cautious and covering their bases.

  • Vidiot

    HEAVEN - "Ever since 9-11, Americans have had their rights and freedoms removed via the Homeland Security Act. The WTS could be seen as anti-government."

    Aah yes, that does makes sense. Wait, don't you mean the PATRIOT Act?

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