"Are you In the Truth?"

by Nickolas 202 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  PSacramento

  It has already been said that without Genesis the Watchtower version of The Truth falls apart. That is, if the Adam and Eve story isn't true, PSacramento, then how could the story of God sending his Son down to redeem us for that Original Sin be true? The New Testament gospels of Matthew and Luke present the geneology of Jesus of Nazareth tracing back to Adam. Is this allegory? If so, what is the purpose?

  The story of Adma and Eve is the story of Man's Fall from God's grace, in a nutshell it is about Man ( symbolised by Man and Woman) deciding that they do NOT need God and that they can do it themselves, and their Fall because of that.

  Jesus is God's reconcilation: Nothing that Man can do will ever get Man "back up there" ( In God's grace) so God "comes down" to Us in the form of his only begotten Son incarnate in a human body ( The union of God and Man as it was and supposed to be) and by Jesus's life and death, we are reconciled with God's grace - Man could never get back up there so God came down to Man and gave the gift of Grace and resurrection (eternal life).

  Why did Jesus have to die? Because he ( the human form) could never have been ressurected if he hadn't and could never have shown us OUR futre:

  Resurrected, in union with God, the spirit living in us all.
• 

  Nickolas

  Ah, I was waiting for you to pick up, PSacramento, but, with respect, you didn't answer the question.

  You are saying the Eden story is symbolism, which is consistent with Christians subscribing to evolutionary theory, as you do. But the fly in the ointment are those genealogical accounts in the Christian gospels, upon which so much of Christian belief and ideology are based. Specifically, the accounts of Matthew 1:1-17, which traces the genealogy of Joseph and of Luke 3:23-38, which traces the genealogy of Mary, both going right back to Adam. These accounts are very specific, naming each succeeding generation in turn. If the Adam and Eve story is symbolism, as you say, why the need for the genealogies? If Adam was the first sapient homo, why no mention of the animal homos that preceeded him?
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  I think we need to distinguish "being in the truth" from having/believing "physical facts and/or theories". True, biological facts are often indisputable. Historical "facts" less so.....and, of course, moral and religious "facts" are universally questioned.

  But, "being in the Truth" requires certain presuppositions. In the case of the WTS, it tantamounts to, "accepting the authoritative teachings of and being in submission to, the WTS, no matter how right or wrong their beliefs are at the moment". To a Mormon, it's all related to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

  But, biblically speaking, "being in the truth" has nothing to do with visible organizations. It has to do with relationship with a person...and that relationship requires Holy Ghost revelation...revelation about our absolute poverty of spirit and the horror of sin, as well as the sole solution to our wretchedness.

  Only when, through divinely given faith (revelation), the love of God delivers us from ourselves into the grace and mercy of the Redeemer, are individuals "in the Truth", and can rejoice and glory in fellowship with the Father and the Son.

  Vander
• 

  Nickolas

  The very simple question remains unanswered.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  <<But the fly in the ointment are those genealogical accounts in the Christian gospels>>

  Excellent. Can't have it both ways.
• 

  Nickolas

  I think you get the point, Vander. The New Testament is solidly founded on the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth is the messiah by virtue of his direct line of descent from Adam and Eve. Take away Adam and Eve and you take away the messiah. Take away the messiah and you take away Christianity.
• 

  PSacramento

  You are saying the Eden story is symbolism, which is consistent with Christians subscribing to evolutionary theory, as you do. But the fly in the ointment are those genealogical accounts in the Christian gospels, upon which so much of Christian belief and ideology are based. Specifically, the accounts of Matthew 1:1-17, which traces the genealogy of Joseph and of Luke 3:23-38, which traces the genealogy of Mary, both going right back to Adam. These accounts are very specific, naming each succeeding generation in turn. If the Adam and Eve story is symbolism, as you say, why the need for the genealogies? If Adam was the first sapient homo, why no mention of the animal homos that preceeded him?

  Adam is the symbolic first male ( heck his name could even have been Adam for al we know), so tracing a geneology to Adam is not really a statement of his factual existence as much as a statement that Mary was decendant from the first known man of Hebrew geneology.

  Why the need for geneology? To the Hebrews, it was a way to trace their "uniqueness" as compared to the "outsiders", if one views Adam as the frist prototypical "hebrew".
• 

  PSacramento

  The New Testament is solidly founded on the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth is the messiah by virtue of his direct line of descent from Adam and Eve. Take away Adam and Eve and you take away the messiah. Take away the messiah and you take away Christianity.

  You take away the Messiah in the "hebrew" sense, which got downplayed as time when on anyways.
• 

  superpunk

  You are saying the Eden story is symbolism

  
• 

  Nickolas

  Why the need for geneology? To the Hebrews, it was a way to trace their "uniqueness" as compared to the "outsiders", if one views Adam as the frist prototypical "hebrew".

  You take away the Messiah in the "hebrew" sense, which got downplayed as time when on anyways.

  I think you may detect the contradiction between those two statements, PSacramento. If the genealogies were retained in the Christian writings because they lent credibility to the messianic claim of Jesus of Nazareth from the Hebrew perspective then it does not follow that the Hebrew perspective would be later downplayed. It sounds too much like sucking people into listenting to The Truth by starting with a lie.

  Here's the upshot. Ready? Fundamentalist Christian groups, and I will include the Watchtower as much as they would object, look down upon what they call cafeteria Christians precisely for this reason. Christianity is based 100% (one hundred percent) on the Bible, there is no other source. But people who consider themselves non-fundamentalist Christians will accept less than 100% of the Bible as fact. Rejection of the Adam and Eve story verbatim when it has been presented as fact together with the genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth, also presented as fact, is rationalisation of one's faith, picking and choosing between what is credible to him and what is not.

  I agree, the Genesis story is not credible. It crumbles under the weight of massive contradictory evidence. But I also agree that the very basic tenets of Christianity fall apart without it, and it is for this reason I am not a Christian.