No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  sobrino1

  Leolaia: "So what is your interpretation of ch. 5? Or ch. 1 and 3 of Philippians?"

  Chapter 5 of which book?

  As for Philippians 1 and 3, I don’t have a problem w/ those verses.

  I’m assuming you’re referring to:

  (Philippians 3:20) As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

  Notice that a Christian’s “citizenship exists in the heavens” but that at the same time they expect “a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” from this very place. If Christians were going to heaven, why do they expect Jesus “from” this “place”? That would be my question.

  As for their citizenship “in the heavens”, notice what Ephesians 2:6 says:

  (Ephesians 2:6) . . .and he raised us up [past tense] together and seated us [past tense] together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus,

  So, according to Paul, a Christian can be ‘raised up’ and “seated” in the “heavenly places” while being on earth. In a similar manner, I understand Philippians 3 to be talking about the same thing. A Christian can be in heaven in some sense, but in the same way that Paul was "in the heavenly places."

  Hope that helps in understanding my position.
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  brotherdan

  Wow...ok, this is probably one of the easiest questions I've been asked.

  Matthew 5:3 - "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

  Matthew 5:8 - "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."

  Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone saying to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter INTO the kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father in heaven."

  John 14:2,3 - "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also"

  Matt. 18:1-6 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

  Matt. 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

  Matt 22:30 - "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

  Mark 13:31 - "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

  Rev 21:1 - "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away"

  Luke 6:23 - "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven."

  Shall I go on? I called it CHERRY PICKING because you ignored all the verses talking about ENTERING INTO the kingdom of HEAVEN. Your exegesis on this subject just is not hermeneutically sound.
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  brotherdan

  If Christians were going to heaven, why do they expect Jesus “from” this “place”? That would be my question.

  Are we 12? Jesus is FROM heaven because he is God. He CREATED the heavens and the earth. I can be FROM Los Angeles and live IN Los Angeles at the same time.
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  Darth plaugeis

  And When I die I can run with Ol Yeller in a Field in Heaven.

  
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  brotherdan

  I also direct you to 1Cor 12:2-5 - "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth:) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities".
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  sobrino1

  Brotherdan, please note that the phrase "kingdom of heaven" doesn't mean "kingdom in heaven", but simply a kingdom from heaven, i.e. from God.

  You site Matthew 5:3, but if you read just 2 verses later you see that inheriting the "kingdom of heaven" is really "inheriting the earth."

  Every single text you mentioned, you read it w/ a presupposition and yet you say that my exegesis and hermeneutics aren't sound.
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  Ding

  My little contribution to this discussion went unanswered so I'll repeat it.

  Where does this scripture fit in?

  Zephaniah 1:18: "Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD's wrath. In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth."
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  believingxjw

  Welcome! For the most part I agree with you. But I leave the details for another time.
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  Leolaia

  I was referring to ch. 5 of 2 Corinthians.

  The problem with using Ephesians (which imo is later and deutero-Pauline) to interpret the heavenly citizenship of Philippians 3 as something existing in the here-and-now is that Paul quite pointedly says that this reward is something that he does not yet have ("I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it", "I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward", v. 13-14), but which he expects to have in the resurrection (v. 10-11, 21). Paul already in ch. 1 raised the prospect of his own death and pointedly contrasted his options of either remaining in the body or departing to be with Christ (v. 19-26). The question is: departing to where? That Paul refers to the prize as being heavenward indicates that he is thinking of heaven, which fits very well with what he wrote in 2 Corinthians 5.

  What of Hebrews?
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  Mythbuster