The Bible Gods Word or Mans (page 3)

Finkelstein

that the Jews introduce linear time adding with god existing outside time and space

If this wasn't purposed then you would have to explain the birth and beginning of god.

Or how and when god was created ?

Jonathan Drake

@razor

i don't think I get what your asking for; are you asking for evidence that Heaven does not exist?

This is kind of the problem, there's no way to prove unequivocally God and heaven don't exist. I don't disbelieve because of this kind of proof. I don't believe there is a God because of evidence that disproves the bible, because of terrible things that have happened, because of the things you can look around and see religion doing in the name of their God. All of this is evidence that the bible and these groups are lies. When the things that are supposed to be from God are all lies and there are evidence against them - in my mind that discredits God pretty heavily.

I highly suggest reading Undeniable by bill Nye. He explains some things that very heavily influenced my reasoning on God.

Finkelstein

The writers of the bible were both fictional and non-fictional , fictional when they when wrote about the activity of their god in his power and greatness and his relationship with the Hebrews and somewhat factual when they wrote about people and things that they did when these writers lived.

azor

I agree with you Fink. I am looking for solid evidence for the theists claim. I am sure it's out there. If it hasn't been than it will soon I am sure. What I'm primarily looking for is proof that these concepts predated the bible or that theists are reading current meaning into texts that were not there when it was written.

Even without solid evidence on this one point does not negate all of the evidence that their is no god. Theism is currently dying of a thousand cuts. It may be slow but it is happening.

Jonathan Drake

@razor

ahhh okay. So you're not a believer defending faith. I got the wrong impression. I still dot

mt think I'm understanding what you're looking for, but the epic of Gilgamesh predates the bible considerably and is believed it's what Noah is based on. I don't remember everything about it but I wanna say gods involved somewhere along the line.

Finkelstein

The ancient Hebrews wrote stories about the earth and the heavens above by virtue of their own inherent ignorance about the world which they lived and time in human history.

From that factual acknowledgment gods served as a necessity to help explain the things they saw and experienced.

They ancients were then motivated to advocate the power and relevance to those envisioned gods to confirm their own beliefs toward those gods. Thats another reason why distinctly separate civilizations went about attacking other civilizations who may have worshiped different gods unlike their own.

Is that disputable ?

I dont think so, when you take a close analytical and critical evaluation of the ancient Hebraic writings.

azor

I will be checking out the book Undeniable. Thank you Jonathan.

I just have the last portion of my 2nd question left to be answered. Did the jews introduce a god to the world that existed outside of time and space? Or was this concept predated by for example the epic of Gilgamesh. Or misunderstood and an anachronism that theists are using to try and prove the god of the bible. I don't like to let false claims go without a response as they gain credibly where I believe there is none.

James Mixon

The bible was not handed to mankind by God, nor was it dictated to

human stenographers by God. It has nothing to do with God. In actuality, the

Bible was VOTED to be the word of God by group of men during the 4th

century. Emperor Constantine used what motivates many to action-Money.

He offered the various Church leaders money to agree upon a single canon.

The church leaders gathered together at the Council of Nicaea and VOTED

"the word of God into existence".

One can easily argue that the first Christian Bible was commissioned, paid

for, inspected and approved by a Pagan emperor for church use.

azor

Just because cultures mention heaven does not mean they taught or believed that god existed outside of time and space.

fulltimestudent

azor: The Bible for the first time introduces a singular monotheistic god that exists outside of time and space.

May I take the second point first, i.e. that god exists outside of time and space.

What does it mean when someone claims, that there is a being that lives outside of time or space?

The concept is dependent first on being able to demonstrate the existence of such a being, because the problems associated with that being existing in a empty universe, in which measurable time does not exist have only become apparent with our contemporary expansion of knowledge about the universe.

But isn't the concept, that god lives outside of time and space, predicated on a belief (faith) that this god actually exists, but we now start to move in circles as the existence of a creative god is very difficult to demonstrate.

This question was discussed on TED (though I've lost the link) and I really liked the way that the question was asked:

How can God exist beyond space and time?

I'm trying to make sense of this "existence" outside space and time. How can something , anything exist yet not exist in space-time? Something completely disconnected from length, width, height, or point in time....

Is this a "truth" that is beyond human comprehension? For maybe this may be one the "truths" that escapes the human intellect. However there are also non-sense statements that require filtering, I believe that existence beyond space and time is one statement that requires filtering.

Does God pop in and out of existence along with virtual particles? Or is God tightly curled up( about a Planck length?) in one or more dimensions of a Calabi-Yau manifold? Or is this existence as useful as the Cosmic Peanut Butter Theory?

Asking if it's possible means nothing, however. The question to ask is, what makes anyone say this? What is the evidence for such assertions? Show me how does anyone got to this statement.

Please as you deploy your arguments don't conflate suppositions with explanations, for these are not interchangeable. Just because it can be imagined, does not make it valid, or even explanatory.
And no scripture as proof.("Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... (1 Kings 8:27)) etc

The above questions were asked by someone who doubted

Another aspect of this discussion involves the way the ancients thought of time. Is it identical to our view.

A useful discussion by a believer is at this link:

http://www.tyndalehouse.com/tynbul/library/TynBull_2001_52_2_02_Blocher_TimeEternity.pdf

And finally, I ask anyone considering the question to ask how the people of that time (of scripture writing) understood time and eternity?

The Bible Gods Word or Mans

Share this