"At least He/She died before 'Armageddon'..." How do you counter this....?

by ziddina 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Stephen, if the judgment comes after everyone is resurrected, then there is no need for the dead to be conscious of anything.

    Right?

    Check out these two characters

    Luke 23:32-43 (New International Version)

    32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." [ a ] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

    35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One."

    36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself."

    38 There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

    40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

    42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

    43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

    And these

    Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)

    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

    25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

    27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

    29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

    30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

    31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

    Finally, consider these words

    2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (New International Version)

    6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

    Philippians 1:22-24 (New International Version)

    22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

    Paul mention no "intermediate state", those who believe go to be with the Lord and those who don't go to the place of "blackest darkness" 2 Peter 2:17 , Jude 1:13.

    Sure, the day of judgement comes after and thereafter comes the final dwelling places, Revelation 20

    Revelation 21:1-8 (New International Version)

    1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

    5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

    6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • elderelite
    elderelite

    I lol'd at blondie... I too once said something similar. A very good friend had died (not "in the truth") and some jack hole said something similar.. my response..

    "well I can only wish the same for you then"...

    they didn't get it at first.. I saw it begin to dawn them as I gave a dirty look and walked away..

  • wantstoleave
    wantstoleave

    I think most of us who were witnesses said similar at one point or another. I remember saying basically the same thing when a relative died. Words to the effect that 'at least he's made it now'. He wasn't a witness, yet because he died before the tribulation, I figured he was now safe. At the time, it was such comfort that one day I'd see him again. These days I ponder on what type of man he was when alive and treasure those memories. It's a hard thing to stomach when you're coming out of the religion, that there may be no resurrection at all but better to live in the here and now.

  • MrFreeze
    MrFreeze

    @blondie

    "I once said, "if that is true, then we should go door to door and shoot people dead so they get into Paradise.""

    I've used that line of reasoning before on all sorts of topics, especially with the line of reasoning about "at least they died before Armageddon."

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    JWS are mentally repressed into thinking that this life has no real value. This is after all Satan's wicked system of things not god's,

    the real and valued life is after Armageddon and the expected paradise for those that god approves.

    It's an all impending fear tactic to control people into doing what they want, which of course is becoming a full-time publisher

    of their literature and culler of more devout publishlers ( the hidden agenda ) .

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