The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest 404 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Wow. A girl steps away from the board to spend a little time with hubby and the puppies and look what happens! Dear Miz Syl and Miz Tec... the greatest of love and peace to you both, and THANK you... for carrying on! LOLOLOLOL

    Greetings, dear Bohm, and peace to you!

    Imagine that I had a magic button which i could push at any time and it would give everyone food, housing, security and kill the devil and all on his side in an instant. Just by one single push with my finger. Now imagine I was looking into the eyes of a child slowly starving to death, or being raped, or being burned alive in an oven in Auschwitz. Is there any possible reason why i should not push that button?

    If that WERE the function of the button, no. But you assume that that is the function. It is not. Dear one, we don't want the Most Holy One of Israel to step in and solve our problems... i.e., 'push the button.' Eventually, He WILL... but until that time we don't want Him to. Truly. Why? Because not everyone we WANT to be ready for such an event... is ready. Heck, we don't even want earthling man to push HIS "magic" button. Look at all of the summits, etc., to PREVENT it. When JAH finally "pushes the button" it will be worse for some than any other time previously. The flood of Noah's day. Sodom and Gomorrah. Egypt. Jerusalem. Even the Holocaust.

    The Most Holy One of Israel never promise man the things you mention while man is OUTSIDE of the "garden," and it is not until all of His are "INSIDE" the Holy City, "New Jerusalem", that the button will be pushed. Praise JAH... the "gate" to that City is not yet shut. It's narrow, true, and few are the ones finding it (him, Christ)... but look! the Door stands open, still!

    As for that child, she is not forgotten. True, her flesh may have returned to the dust... and possibly her bones burned. But if she belonged to JAH... her spirit returned to JAH... and is under the altar and in His protection... awaiting resurrection to a spirit body. If she did not belong to Him but her spirit left her body before her bones were fully burned, it went to the World of the Dead... and awaits a resurrection... either to life or judgment, which is another discussion and thread altogether.

    God created us in his image,

    That is inaccurate, dear NVL (and peace to you!). He created Adham and Eve in His image. We are created in Adam's image... the image he possessed AFTER he sinned. I truly don't understand why folks just CAN'T seem to GET this truth. Even if you don't want to take MY word for, it's what THE BIBLE (which you seem to rely on??) even states. In more than one place!

    he expressed emotions like we do,

    Again, that is inaccurate. WE express emotions in a [very] poor imitation of Him.

    he is completely anthropomorphised by his own inspired writings.

    First, I must ask, to which writings are you referring as "his"? Please, PLEASE... do not say "the Bible," because that is NOT His "inspired writings" but only contains SOME of those writings. Second, He IS anthropomorphized... but so much more by His Son. Which He HAD to do ... because man... who LACKS FAITH... cannot PERCEIVE Him as the Spirit He is. Which is MAN's deficiency, not His. And so, He condescended to allow His Son... and that Son condescended... to put ON flesh. So that we COULD see His glory... through that One's WORKS... not his FLESH. It was an accommodation for OUR lack of faith!

    Children always compare themselves to their parents. God had friends and conversed with them,

    allowed them to persuade him, felt love, regret. Other than the indiscriminate killing and display of

    random destructive power, he is just like us. Why shouldn't we compare ourselves to him or him to us.

    We SHOULD compare ourselves... which we DO by looking at CHRIST... and if we DID we would find that WE fall WAY short in such a comparison! As for comparing Him to US... that is exactly why we have things written about Him that are NOT true, that are ENTIRELY false: because they are what MAN does and thus, like the self-serving beings WE are... always attributing OUR "dirt" to others... we attribute such to HIM. BUT... if one TRULY wants to see God... KNOW what He looks like... what He thinks like... one only needs to SEE... and KNOW... Christ.

    I think children are innocent to God. WE corrupt them.

    Greetings, dear tec... and the greatest of love and peace to you! I mean no disrespect but would just like to set this matter straight. Children may or may not be innocent to God. That a person has not been BORN yet, however, does NOT mean they don't exist. For some, the person comes into being at the moment of conception. For the Most Holy One of Israel, however, it starts even before that. HE knows the PERSON that a pairing of 2 individuals will produce. And should the physical world last long enough, earthling man will eventually come to know of this phenomena, too, that the person comes into existence even before his/her body does. Right now, however, some excuse it away in order to excuse away abortion (but note, I am NOT trying to start THAT debate right now).

    Contrary to popular belief... or disbelief... or an inability to believe, however... we don't "naturally" come into this world with love and peace IN us. Such things are AGAINST our "nature." We come... with hate and anger... which is a PRODUCT of our "nature." ALL of us (excluding a rare few, discussed below). We are NOT pre-programmed to accept the good and hate the bad. Like Christ, we must LEARN to accept the good and reject the bad. He did not come into this world KNOWING how to choose good from bad. His previous existence was not fully known to him until around the time he was weaned. He was sent in the likeness of sinFUL flesh, in all respects, and thus had to learn as we do. Some of us learn it real quick... and on very rare occasions (I only know of 3, but there may have been others) even before leaving the womb (because of the SPIRIT that was IN them... BEFORE they left leave the womb). Some, however, NEVER learn it. Ever.

    I offer, as I have on many occasions before, that any one of us can put 2 or more toddlers in a room with one toy... and see what happens. With the exception of the rare occasion (i.e., where one toddler has already "learned" to "share"... and that can occur for a number of reasons, including the spirit given them at conception, their quick intelligence, and more...), someone has to TEACH those toddlers to how to share and "play nice." Most often, however, sooner or later one of them will bust the other in the head with that toy. Even if someone has been trying to teach them NOT to do such a thing.

    And EVERYONE here who has been a parent KNOWS this is the truth. AND... that we blame BOTH the child AND the parent, even though they are toddlers. We blame the toddler for not KNOWING how to "play nice," (because, "Well. MY little Susie knew how and I didn't have teach her a THING, but THIS child, well... I can see it in her already and she's a 'bad' seed"...). We blame the parent(s) for not TEACHING them how to do so ("How can she/he/they let her BE 'like' that? They should DO 'something.' I would NEVER let MY little Susie treat another child that way...").

    The Most Holy One of Israel can "see" what a person will do/be... before their flesh ever even exits the womb, however. Just as a parent can "see" what their child will become (even if they don't want to admit it - we very often choose NOT to see, however, if the "signs" are "bad." Because we don't want to take responsibility for what we "see"...). And He can CERTAINLY see His own children and, thus, those who are NOT His children.

    Jesus said that he longed to gather the children of Jerusalem... but they (Jerusalem) were not willing.

    Yes, dear one... THEY were not willing... themselves OR to allow their children!

    I don't know why God allows suffering. I don't know what else is going on.

    Sure you do! AN ACCUSATION HAS BEEN RAISED... against each and every ONE of us: skin and behalf of skin and ALL that a man has he WILL give on behalf of his flesh! ("Now the accuser of our brothers, who ACCUSES them night and day, has been thrown down!" What has he accused us OF?)

    I do trust Him, though - and I think he knows the way things will turn out and the way things would

    have been if he imposed his will on those who are not willing.

    And you trust Him... because of your FAITH. Which is why YOU get these things, while others DON'T.

    None of any of it changes the fact that we are responsible for making changes.

    Indeed! And those who are children of the flesh... of ADHAM... as opposed to the children of God... do exactly what their "father" did: blames everyone else for HIS actions.

    We have ourselves to blame for the way things are. And we fall short on both, time and again. You can't blame a god you're not listening to or believing in to begin with.

    Although you speak the truth, dear one... they're not listening. They can't. Because they don't WANT to hear the truth... FROM the Truth. Yet. That they don't want to, however, doesn't stop our Lord... or us... from speaking. Jerusalem didn't listen, either. Nor did Capernaum. Or others. Yet, the disciples were still sent back to those, even after our Lord went to offer his sacrifice on behalf of those in Jerusalem... and Capernaum.

    Finally, dear Whereami (peace to you!), your video was most interesting. Especially the part about what theology teaches. Seems pretty accurate to me, as they don't have much to do with the TRUTH. Never have. The first part, however, seems to indicate that the video's creator didn't agree with "theology" at all... and if that is the case, then I must agree with him/her.

    Again, I bid you all peace... and ears to hear, if you have not already heard... when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"

    A slave of Christ, the cistern from which such "water" flows,

    SA

  • startingover
    startingover

    I cannot believe what you believers have posted on this thread. And you Snowbird, after what you have posted I have to ask what happened to your swan song? You should have carried it out. Your thinking is dangerous and needs to be suppressed.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    That is inaccurate, dear NVL (and peace to you!). He created Adham and Eve in His image. We are created in Adam's image... the image he possessed AFTER he sinned. I truly don't understand why folks just CAN'T seem to GET this truth. Even if you don't want to take MY word for, it's what THE BIBLE (which you seem to rely on??) even states. In more than one place!

    Oh dear Shelby. The bible says in 1 Corinthians that man is God's image and glory, in MORE THAN ONE PLACE! 2 Conrinthians says our unveliled faces reflect the image and glory of god. So if man wa created in the image of God and then it says we ARE the image of god and his glory, it stands to reason that would be true. I guess they don't get it because the bible clearly says we reflect god's image and glory.

    Don't take it up with me, I didn't write the bible you use when it's convenient, my dear :)

    Again, that is inaccurate. WE express emotions in a [very] poor imitation of Him.

    How so? God seems to pretty much the same as us. Lonely at times, angry at times, jealous at times, happy at time, feeling regret at times. The only difference is that, at least in the Bible, he has unlimited power to lash out when it suits him.

    The Most Holy One of Israel can "see" what a person will do/be... before their flesh ever even exits the womb, however.

    So god KNEW what Adam and Eve would do and let it happen anyway, he knew what Satan would do and let all of this misery happen anyway?

    He is a total dick.

  • tec
    tec

    Shelby, thank you for responding to my thoughts. I NEVER take offense when you do, even if you are disagreeing with or adding to something I said. I'm going to think about (and also pray and ask about) the things you've said concerning children, and of course I understand your toddler example. We do have to be taught kindness and sharing - and not just thinking 'ME'. Yet, I also don't believe you're speaking of predestination when you speak of God knowing what we will do from before the womb... simply that God, in his wisdom and extensive experience/knowledge, knows what people will do based on their experiences and upbringing and environment, and parents, and social time and climate, etc.

    But do you think that someone who does not belong to him (perhaps out of experiences that might have jaded them), can repent and begin knocking and seeking... perhaps because someone took it upon themselves to show him the love and kindness and mercy that Christ shows and taught - or because of any other reason that I can't currently think of?

    I think this. Thinking any other way makes me very sad.

    So god KNEW what Adam and Eve would do and let it happen anyway, he knew what Satan would do and let all of this misery happen anyway? He is a total dick. - NVL

    I don't think that's what she said. Since I took the pup out before I submitted, she might have answered your already though :)

    tammy

  • exwhyzee
    exwhyzee

    The Issue is not that God WANTS Us to Suffer. dear ones. He does NOT. Rather, it is our Adversary who says we will do anything... ANYTHING... to AVOID it.

    A-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Even curse God to His face. Sadly,

    he may be right.

    AGuest (may you get a clue) God cursed mankind and the punishment he handed down was a life of suffering and eventual death. Does going to a Doctor, having surgery, getting dental work done or taking medicine mean we are pleasing Satan by trying to avoid suffering...avoid our punishment?

    Of course God wanted us to suffer...and he went out of his way to make sure it happened.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Oh dear Shelby. The bible says in 1 Corinthians that man is God's image and glory, in MORE THAN ONE PLACE! 2 Conrinthians says our unveliled faces reflect the image and glory of god. So if man wa created in the image of God and then it says we ARE the image of god and his glory, it stands to reason that would be true. I guess they don't get it because the bible clearly says we reflect god's image and glory. Don't take it up with me, I didn't write the bible you use when it's convenient, my dear :)

    Which is why I can't put my faith "in the Bible", dear NVL... because in the instance you are speaking of (1 Corinthians), that was someone's (Paul's ?) attempt to use the "scriptures" to support the FALSE teaching of man's (male) superiority over woman (female)... which is utterly untrue (for example, referring to Sarah's calling Abraham "Lord," which she did. She also told his butt to get rid of Hagar, however, and although he didn't want to do that... HE was directed to listen to HER. By God. By gawd...)

    But regardless of that, the ACCOUNT states:

    "So God created man (adham) in his image, in his image God created male and created female."

    I would encourage you to look up the Hebrew transliteration on this as it is majorily misstated in most English Bibles.

    Now, you might say, "Yes, it says God created Adam, the MAN, in His image, but not Eve." I would say to YOU, however, that "Adham"... which means "earthling man" (as opposed to spirit man, and NOT "red", which is "adOm")... included BOTH Adam and Eve. For "Eve" was not even CALLED such until AFTER they both sinned. But you don't have to take MY word for it:

    "This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he them. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." Genesis 5:1, 2

    Please note that the Hebrew word for "Adam" (Strong's H119)... is the SAME for "man" (Strong's H120).

    As for your quotes in 2 Corinthians... you've used the NWT, which erroneously states that our "unveiled faces reflect the image and glory of god." That verse (2 Corinthians 3:18) ACTUALLY states:

    "... while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of CHRIST, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by CHRIST, the Spirit."

    Unfortunately, that is one of those verses where the WTBTS removed the term "Lord" and replaced it with "Jehovah." It goes on to state that we are:

    "... transformed into the same image..."

    If we are TRANSFORMED into that image, however, that means we weren't IN such image... to BEGIN with. But, again, let's not take MY word for it; let's see what "the Bible" says. How about 1 Corinthians 15:45-49:

    "It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one."

    God seems to pretty much the same as us.

    Wait, you JUST said that we are HIS image... not He ours! But that's inaccurate, too. We are in ADAM'S image... he who was created in God's image... but AFTER he sinned:

    "And Adam lived on for a hundred and thirty years. Then he became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and called his name Seth." Genesis 5:3

    Notice, Seth wasn't made in God's image. How then can we, who are so far down the line, be created in an image that even Adam's son Seth didn't bear?

    Lonely at times, angry at times, jealous at times, happy at time, feeling regret at times.

    But these things you mention are things of the heart... the SPIRIT... not the flesh... which is the image that we currently bear...

    The only difference is that, at least in the Bible, he has unlimited power to lash out when it suits him.

    Which brings two things to my mind and heart, the first one being that He DOES have such power but it is earthling man's "false stylus" that has had Him "lash out," and if He DOES have such power... who are we to check His hand???

    So god KNEW what Adam and Eve would do and let it happen anyway...

    No, dear one. Look at what I POSTED: The Most Holy One of Israel can "see" what a person will do/be... before their flesh ever even exits the womb, however. Once such ones are conceivedthey become "persons" to the Most Holy One of Israel. Yet, their flesh is still in the womb. Neither Adam nor Eve came into existence in such a way, however...

    he knew what Satan would do and let all of this misery happen anyway?

    Same thing: Satan didn't come into existence "through" such a conception.

    He is a total dick.

    I absolutely agree. You may not even know/understand the half, actually.

    Again, I bid you peace, dear NVL... and hope "all" is going "well" with you and yours.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    I don't think that's what she said. Since I took the pup out before I submitted, she might have answered your already though :)

    She said he knows before we are conceived what we will do. Logically he would have known the same about Adam and Eve and let all this shit happen anyway. That's kind of a dick move.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    But do you think that someone who does not belong to him (perhaps out of experiences that might have jaded them), can repent and begin knocking and seeking... perhaps because someone took it upon themselves to show him the love and kindness and mercy that Christ shows and taught - or because of any other reason that I can't currently think of?

    I cannot respond as I think you may want me to do, dear tec (as always, peace to you!). I can only offer you that (1) the Most Holy One of Israel is NOT the only one who sowed his "seed" in the physical realm, and (2) we do have a wrestling with other spirit forces, which wrestling includes (3) Satan continuing to wage war with the remaining ones of the seed of the Woman, which (4) does NOT include ALL of mankind.

    The word of my Lord to me on this matter is that he calls HIS sheep by name and leads THEM out. The term "HIS sheep"... means, of course, that there are sheep that are NOT his (i.e., those who do NOT belong to God)... and so who are not so called.

    Such belonging, dear one, has nothing to do with one being jaded by experiences. Regardless of their life experiences, our Lord's sheep... hear his voice. Indeed, he is recorded to have said, "MY sheep know my voice." AND he is recorded to have said that he does not lose ONE... except the Son of Destruction.

    If, then, one DOES turn around and follow him I would venture to say one was one of his sheep all along... but just took some time to hear... and respond. Which is why we should NOT want Him to intervene at this time... because, as with Sodom there may yet BE "40 righteous men" left. Or more. True, we want this kingdom to be established but that MEANS... we want ALL of His chosen ones to be gathered so that His temple, New Jerusalem... is COMPLETE.

    I am truly sorry if this does not comport with what you believe/understand, but it is the truth. Truly.

    Again, I bid you the greatest of love and peace!

    YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    She said he knows before we are conceived what we will do.

    No, she said that occurs in rare cases (and she knows of three: Cyrus, Jeremiah, and John the Baptist), dear NVL (peace to you!). Otherwise... He knows before we are BORN... conceived but not having left the womb. Not the same thing... and since truth is imporant in these things, we should try to stick to accuracy, as well.

    Logically he would have known the same about Adam and Eve and let all this shit happen anyway.

    Adam and Eve were neither conceived... nor born, dear one.

    That's kind of a dick move.

    Hmmm... perhaps you got "something" on the brain, tonight? I don't think this is the post for it, though. Try the "Adult" room...

    And, again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    He knows before we are BORN... conceived but not having left the womb. Not the same thing... and since truth is imporant in these things, we should try to stick to accuracy, as well.

    Right on, Shelby. Perhaps you can re-parse what you wrote, then, I quoted it below...

    That a person has not been BORN yet, however, does NOT mean they don't exist. For some, the person comes into being at the moment of conception. For the Most Holy One of Israel, however, it starts even before that. HE knows the PERSON that a pairing of 2 individuals will produce.

    How does that not mean that he knows what we will do before conception? In what other sense would he know us? If I am confused, perhaps this clarifies that I am not trying to misrepresent you, but that that made me think that is what you meant. If not, please, could you clarify for me?

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