The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest 404 Replies latest jw friends

  • tec
    tec

    If, then, one DOES turn around and follow him I would venture to say one was one of his sheep all along... but just took some time to hear... and respond.

    I had almost added that to what I had said earlier, but then I left it off. And don't be sorry - I wouldn't want you to answer me just with what I want to hear. In fact, I smiled a little when I read this : I cannot respond as I think you may want me to do, dear tec (as always, peace to you!) because I knew then what you were going to say. I think I knew before then, too... but hoped otherwise.

    But I do trust Him, so I'm going to cast my worries onto Him, as he invites us to do... and continue to pray for understanding for myself.

    Peace and love to you, Shelby, and thank you for your honesty - not that I thought you would answer in any other manner except with honesty, mind you.

    Tammy

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    Aguest

    dear ones. He does NOT. Rather, it is our Adversary who says we will do anything... ANYTHING... to AVOID it. A-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Even curse God to His face. Sadly, he may be right. Hopefully, he is not. But he isn't going to stop trying to prove that accusation... so long as he exists. Look to the life of the man Job.

    As an agnostic -- I do not know if a 'god' entity exists, but, IF 'IT' does...and I get a 'hearing', I most probably will do just that, "Even curse God to His face." Why? It's highly unlikely 'IT' would have any acceptable answers for 'It's' insane, murderous, cruel, total-hands-off behavior. The Bible god cannot possibly, honestly be a God of Love, who listens to prayers. There has never been any man or woman that gets away live -- we all die. Everybody.

    So, one way to have less angst & hatred: Don't worry about every one's interpretation of what the thousands of Invisible Spirits want mankind to do. There. I feel better now. Maybe you will, too.

    Second: At least consider that by accepting our existence as natural evolution, and there is no after-life, no 2-faced Invisible Spirits or Flying Spaghetti Monsters, no Hell, no everlasting judgments, no 77 virgins and no everlasting life.

    Third: Forget about that 'Plan B', that is, thinking some god no one has ever seen will ever save your ass or anyone else's, now, when your are sick, when you are in a tornado or if you have been "good" or followed your god's laws without question! That alone will STOP EVERY WAR!

    Yeah, I know...you feel like there needs to be a god (that cares). You do not want to accept that 'this life' is ALL there is, me, too. I hope there is "something" in the way of an after-life. I don't want it to end either. But, hey, there just isn't ANY kind of opposing evidence out there.

    ~works for us rabbits

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Right on, Shelby. Perhaps you can re-parse what you wrote, then, I quoted it below...

    Okay, let's try, dear NVL (and again peace to you!). First, you again took part of what I said and restated in inaccurately (but I do understand unintentionally). For example, you quote:

    He knows before we are BORN... conceived but not having left the womb.

    But that wasn't quite the FULL context, was it? Let's see:

    NVL states: "She said he knows before we are conceived what we will do."

    SA responded: "No, she said that occurs in rare cases" and cited three... and then stated "... otherwise... He knows before we are BORN... conceived but not having left the womb..."

    You then quote (and I believe here is where the misunderstanding occurred):

    For some, the person comes into being at the moment of conception. For the Most Holy One of Israel, however, it starts even before that. HE knows the PERSON that a pairing of 2 individuals will produce.

    As a result, you ask:

    How does that not mean that he knows what we will do before conception?

    WHO is produced and what such one will DO... is not the same thing, dear one. He knows, for example, that Man A and Woman B will, if joined, produce Child K (as well as, perhaps, Child G, Child C... whatever). Once such child is conceived... comes into being physically... is when, excluding those rare occasions I mentioned... He can know what that child will DO. Why not before? Because... prior to conception there is no vessel of flesh... and so nothing to "lead" that person... to whatever course he ultimately chooses. No "skin" yet, that such one will perhaps do "ANYTHING"... give ALL... on behalf of. No "desire" of the flesh to be exploited... because no FLESH, yet. Thus, no CAUSE for enmity... between the flesh (which does not exist yet) and the spirit (which does)... because there IS yet no flesh to PROVOKE such enmity. By flesh, I mean the physical body, flesh with IT'S blood.

    In what other sense would he know us?

    He would know the SPIRIT... the life FORCE... that will ultimately dwell IN that vessel [of flesh] which is subsequently conceived so as to "house" that particular spirit. And that is the difference between us and Adam/Eve/Satan. We have a vessel that is at enmity with our spirit and so we not only have to try and control the SPIRIT... but the "vessel" as well! They, however, didn't have that vessel to deal with - they only had to control the SPIRIT... which was not at enmity with itself.

    If I am confused, perhaps this clarifies that I am not trying to misrepresent you,

    I didn't take it as you trying to misrepresent me, truly. Misstatements are often unintentional. I took it that you made a misstatement because of not having fully READ... and so been able to understand... what I stated.

    but that that made me think that is what you meant.

    I understand. That happens, sometimes, when (1) it's late, (2) I've had way too much Diet Coke to drink (which is why I am sometimes here at such ungodly hours, and (3) I attempt to be brief[er than I usually am], given the first two. In addition, I do not do "concise" very well, as you have most probably figured out by now. I truly do wish I had that gift, but I accept that I do not. My apologies to you... and everyone... however, for that.

    If not, please, could you clarify for me?

    I hope I have. If not, let me know where you are still confused and I will try further.

    In the meantime, as always, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    ... and peace to you, dear tec!

    And, well, even silly wabbits warrant a wish for peace, dear Rabbit... and so I bid you peace, as well.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    I cannot believe what you believers have posted on this thread. And you Snowbird, after what you have posted I have to ask what happened to your swan song? You should have carried it out. Your thinking is dangerous and needs to be suppressed.

    LOL.

    I came back after many entreaties.

    NVL, you know full well that men were forced to marry women only after rape couldn't be proven. If it was proven, the man was to be put to death.

    Stick to the facts.

    Tec, you are a courageous fighter.

    AGuest, gurl, you sho nuff know how to handle that there Word! (I know I can't talk as well as you, but hey, I tried).

    Syl

  • CandleLight
    CandleLight

    This is how I was taught to understand suffering and why, I do hope that it give other peace as it did me.

    In the beginning, which is really the only way to understand, for we have to look at the root, to understand the branches.

    So the beginning of 'us' was Adam. He was made in Gods ((our in fact) Which was Jesus and God). How so? In likeness of power. This man was made of Dust, out of the earth, and yet he was given the clothes of God in power over his other creation. It was to be in subject to him. The earth, the animals, the ground, he was raised above them all, in the likeness of the Creator, who created them. He was just another creation of God, and yet to his good pleasure, he elevated him to the power in likeness of himself. Adam, and in time, Eve was placed in a special position with their father, one in a constant comunion with him, and with authority granted by him.

    Then comes the 'tree'. Why was it there, was it a trap from God? To damn man to suffering? No. For infact, it had to always be there, for man was a creation, and he being such, always had the choice of rejecting the gift that was given to him. How so? The tree was of knowledge of Good and Bad. God knew this, for he called it as such. Even after adam and eve had chosen the tree, it was acknowleged that they now did have knowledge of Good and Bad. In what way?

    By eating man chose his own mind abilities, or what he could reason, over Gods power and wisdom. He wanted the power within himself, to make the decisions, of what he could see, reason, and bring about. With this act, God in fact gave him what he wanted. Unfortunatly Adam and Eve, also got exactly what they wanted. Because the gift of power that God had given him, above all other creation was now gone. Man rejected it in favor of what power existed within himself.

    Well the power that existed in him as a creation, brought forth death. He was now like other creation, and was in subject to it, instead of above it. Man does not have power within himself to prevent death, suffering, or power to control, animals, weather, or other humankind, even own flesh. This was the lie Satan told. That if man chose himself, and his own power, that he would not die. God knew, that Man did not have this power, that HE was the source of life. Satan too, knew this, but chose to lie, and brought Mankind into sorrow by means of it.

    God through his love, gave us even the ability to have life, to have the desire in us to seek him, for that is what love is. When we express it, when we want to give it and live in it, that is how we know of him. Even if you do no believe in a God, you must acknowledge that if all men followed love, suffering would end. So is it God, who brings the suffering, or is it him who shows us how to reject it?

    With his love

    CL

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Greetings, dear CandleLight and the greatest of love and peace to you! Please forgive me but I have to restate something you said a little more accurately, if you will permit me. Please know that I am not arbitrarily trying to "correct" your understanding, and what you've posted as a result, but I have no choice really, as I am directed to do so by our Lord. Since you did not say that you received such understanding from him.. or that it originated with him... I must assume that you did not and it did not.

    There is a lot in what you say that... ummmmm... sounds like modern "theology." I am not directed to go line by line as I usually do - the word of our Lord to me is that he will teach as to the others matters himself; however, since you've raised this particular issue here, I must address it here, as there are others who may put faith in share we share and it would be unfair, indeed unloving, to not set the matter straight... for them.

    You state:

    God through his love, gave us even the ability to have life, to have the desire in us to seek him, for that is what love is. When we express it, when we want to give it and live in it, that is how we know of him. Even if you do no believe in a God, you must acknowledge that if all men followed love, suffering would end.

    Unfortunately, that is inaccurate, dear one. God, through His love... gave us His Son ("For God SO loved the world..."), which SON... gave us the ability to have life ("I am the Life" - "the world came into existence THROUGH him"). Our desire to seek God is through our desire to know the TRUTH... which Truth... is His Son. Because we cannot COME to the Father, indeed, we cannot KNOW Him... unless we go through... and KNOW... the Son. Love is our way of reflecting the image of the SON... who in turn reflects the image of God. When we express it, when we want to give it, is how we know the SON... and through knowing THAT One... how we know the Father.

    And while it is true that if all men followed love, suffering would be GREATLY reduced... it would not end. Because suffering won't end until the enemies of God, Christ... and mankind... are brought to nothing. Some of those enemied include certain wicked spirit forces... including our Adversary who wages war with us. But even if they were brought to nothing, it is not until the LAST enemy... DEATH... is brought to nothing... that mankind's suffering will end. But, again, we can greatly REDUCE our own suffering... by reflecting the glory of God... which GLORY... is Christ, the Son.

    I apologize if I offend in stating these truths, as that was not my intention at all. Again, it is for the sake of those who may be watching, who may put faith in what we, as the Body of Christ, say. May the Most Holy One of Israel, our heavenly Father, JAH of Armies, grant you, through His Son and Christ, our Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, whatever gifts of the spirit may be beneficial to you so that you may fully accomplish YOUR ministry. And may He bless you... and your entire household... to time indefinite!

    YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

  • CandleLight
    CandleLight

    Dearest Shelby,

    There is no reason for offense. However let me clarify something for you too.

    When I stated what I was taught, then you must understand that my teacher is not a "man". I am a follower of Christ, therefore he is my teacher.

    Im not sure that you realize it, but we are not necessiliary in disagreement. I have not stated anything in opposition to what you said, even if I did not expand the thought, or use you style of words.

    The only difference is perhaps that what I am stating places the power with our God and his gift to us, Jesus. Whereas what you state still limits him, placing power with his enemies.

    Be blessed my sister, and thank you for your comments.

    With his love

    CL

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    Aguest

    And, well, even silly wabbits warrant a wish for peace, dear Rabbit... and so I bid you peace, as well.

    Ahhh...from abnormally verbose...to almost speechless. Sudden halt.

    I am indeed honored.

    ~Luv ya' anyway

  • CandleLight
    CandleLight

    God through his love, gave us even the ability to have life, to have the desire in us to seek him, for that is what love is. When we express it, when we want to give it and live in it, that is how we know of him. Even if you do no believe in a God, you must acknowledge that if all men followed love, suffering would end. So is it God, who brings the suffering, or is it him who shows us how to reject it?

    Shelby showed me how easily my words could be mistaken. It is hard, for I attempt to explain something in my own words, it becomes in it production, faulty. That is why the teacher is God. He can teach each of us in a way that only we can comprehend. My feeble mind does not have this power, but only to share what concept he tried give me to understand. So if you will bear with me a bit...

    We only have life, the ability to live, to eat, to exist, because HE gave it to us. Without him, we cannot even have that. His love and mercy has granted that to us. Our rejection of him, give us Death, not life. But he had mercy, as truely given to us by Jesus, and gives us the ability to seek him. God is Love, Jesus is a demonstration of that love. Therefore when we demonstrate love, we come to understand Christ, and therefore God. Some people refuse to acknowlege him. To give him honor as the source of life, as the one whom loves us, but everything testifies to it, even if we do not wish to acknowedge it.

    If we think about it, we could not even live without him. What do we need to live? Food, water, and shelter. How do we recieve these things? Oh one could say that we build houses, grow food, and chanel water. But that is only USE of creation. Creation is of God. HE made the trees that make the fruit, HE causes the grain to grow in the field, HE made weather so that the rain would cause the tree to grow that we cut down to make the house. HE IS the source of life, the very source of the essentials that sustain our flesh. But to know him teaches us that there is much more to knowing God than satisfying our needs of the flesh. Jesus taught this on the sermon on the mount. For in fact, is it denying of the fruitage of the flesh, that allows us to know truth, which is our lord, who brings us light and understanding of the fruitages of the spirit.

    Love

    CL

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