Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Chalam
debator The transfiguration is a vision simply because Jesus was not a king yet at that point it is showing a time when he will be.
Mark 12:24 (New International Version)
24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?
Isaiah 9:6-7 (New International Version)
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Matthew 21:5 (New International Version)
5"Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.' "[a]
Footnotes:
1. Matthew 21:5 Zech. 9:9
Matthew 2:2 (New International Version)
2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
Galatians 3:29 (New International Version)
29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Matthew 25:34 (New International Version)
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Matthew 27:37 (New International Version)
37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Galatians 3:29 (New International Version)
29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Mark 15:32 (New International Version)
32 Let this Christ, this King of Israel, come down now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Those crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Galatians 3:29 (New International Version)
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Mark 3:23-25 (New International Version)
23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mark 11:7-10 (New International Version)
7 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. 8 Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields. 9 Those who went ahead and those who followed shouted, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" 10 "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!" "Hosanna in the highest!"
Mark 15:2 (New International Version)
2 "Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate. "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
Galatians 3:29 (New International Version)
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
John 18:36-37 (New International Version)
36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
Colossians 1:13 (New International Version)
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves
2 Timothy 4:1 (New International Version)
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge
Hebrews 1:8 (New International Version)
8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
2 Peter 1:11 (New International Version)
11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Revelation 11:15 (New International Version)
15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever."
Revelation 17:14 (New International Version)
14 They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
Revelation 19:16 (New International Version)
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Hebrews 13:8 (New International Version)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Blessings,
Stephen
Mary

this instance isn't a particularily good one to be using for your comments because it is stated that saul couldn't even see who it was...he asked the medium what the person looked like and then when he was told what the spirit looked like ...then he perceived it was saul...it just isn't the same case with Jesus on the mt of transfiguration...first these ones (moses and elijah)were talking with Jesus and second the apostles could see them as well.
Actually, I think it's a particularly good one because it clearly shows that the bible teaches that someone's spirit goes on after they die. Just because Saul himself couldn't see Samuel, does not discount the scriptural support that Samuel's spirit was (obviously) alive somewhere else, was able to be "brought up" and accurately predicted what would happen to Saul. Can demons accurately predict the future? If they can, then what's the difference between a 'prophet of God' and a 'prophet of Satan' if they can both equally and accurately predict the future?
And what about the scripture that states when you die that the body 'goes back to the ground' but that 'the spirit returns to the true God who gave it'?? If this is just an impersonal 'life force', then how do you differentiate between this immaterial 'life force' and 1 Corithians 15 which clearly states "...if there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body"??
As for the Transfiguration being 'different', it does not explain why God would try to trick the disciples into believing that Moses and Elijah were both really there with Jesus, if they were simply dead and buried in the ground. Why would he do that? You've already noted that both Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus. If it wasn't really Moses and Elijah talking, then who was impersonating them? It's far more logical to accept that their spirits were really there with Jesus when the Transfiguration happened. These are just two of many scriptures that state that something in man survives the physical death.
And no one has been able to answer the question I keep putting forth: If Jesus' disciples believed in soul-sleep, then why did Paul specifically say that to die in the body would mean that he would be at home with the Lord?
Vanderhoven7

Hi Chalam,
Wonderful scriptures....thank you.
What do you believe was the point of the transfiguration? What did this vision represent or picture?
Vander

Vanderhoven7

<<There are a few hints in the scriptures, i.e. Lazarus and the rich man, where Lazarus is in a place of comfort and the rich man is complaining of the heat.(Luke16:23-25)>>

Hints, possibilities, theories, maybe. But doctrine only by assumption... i.e. that the rich man fate is that of every unbeliever at death...and that that fate is perpetual until the resurrection of the unjust; assumption being the slippery footing for doctrine that it is.

<<Then there are the souls beneath the altar, asking God how long until He has revenge on those who shed their blood. (Rev 6:9,10)>>

Seems to be something wrong with this picture if the unrighteous are already screaming in agony along with the rich man. Are the souls of martyrs under the alter pleading for greater revenge perhaps? Can I assume then that the lake of fire is hotter than the fire of Hades?

PSacramento

The transfiguration is a vision simply because Jesus was not a king yet at that point it is showing a time when he will be. It is a similar vision to John's revelation vision. but if you don't believe me I refer you to Jesus on this.
(Matthew 17:9) . . .And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. . .
Actually, "vision" is bot ONE of the uses/translation of the greek word Horama, other translations have it as "seen" and Horama is, typically translated as "that which is seen".
If Jesus himself calls it a vision why are you saying otherwise?
See above.
hi Psacramento
You cannot have it all ways if you are now saying you believe in they are asleep in death then recognised the bible says nothing about the soul being a floaty bit that goes up while the body goes in the grave.
Psalm 16:10 (King James Version)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The Bible is clear it is the soul that is in Sheol/hell/grave.
It's NOT about having it both ways, its about makeing the distinction between not only spirit and soul BUt also noting that the Bibel shows Us a progression of the hebrew understanding of not only the state of death but the ressurection as well.
Vanderhoven7

" If the unrighteous are already screaming in agony along with the rich man, are the souls of martyrs under the alter pleading for greater revenge perhaps? Can we assume then that the lake of fire is hotter than the fire of Hades?"
<<I guess you can assume that because the scriptures say that hell is cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.>>
It seems to me that the souls under the alter calling for justice (like the blood of Able speaking), and the tossing of death (with or without the horse it is riding) are figurative. I don't think the martyrs are looking for the screws to be tightened to elicit louder screams. The lake of fire is the second death; its not the second death is the lake of fire.
myelaine

dear Mary...
I believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. the bible does teach that.I believe that when one dies in Christ that the mortal body is "put off" and one is given an immortal body in heaven(white robes). Jesus had an immortal body after His resurrection...He could be seen and touched, He could eat, He spoke to people and He could go through doors.
we can disagree on who the spirit was who was talking to saul but the one said to be samuel didn't fit any of the characteristics of one who was actually "joined" soul and spirit as Jesus Christ was. the one who was "portrayed" to be samuel resembles more a disembodied spirit. the "spirit " was stating that saul would die that day...but without the Lord's protection in battle that statement could have been a "given" that any "spirit" could utter imo. a disembodied spirit could also know other facts about sauls circumstances because it could have been present with him and heard what had transpired between samuel and saul(reasonable speculation on my part) though, of course, it is possible that the spirit was the spirit of the real samuel I think it is unlikely simply because of the circumstances that brought him "up from the earth".
also...elijah went up to heaven and was not found on earth. though jewish tradition has him wandering around on the earth.
love michelle
p.s. I also believe that those that were not allowed by God to "enter" the promised land have been released from the grave and given mortal bodies once again that they might choose Jesus Christ as their saviour in order to show their obedience to God and "enter" into the inheritance of the saints. hence the fighting over the "body" of moses...scripture
Vanderhoven7

<<p.s. I also believe that those that were not allowed by God to "enter" the promised land have been released from the grave and given mortal bodies once again that they might choose Jesus Christ as their saviour in order to show their obedience to God and "enter" into the inheritance of the saints. hence the fighting over the "body" of moses...scripture>>
Now why would you believe that?
Mary

p.s. I also believe that those that were not allowed by God to "enter" the promised land have been released from the grave and given mortal bodies once again that they might choose Jesus Christ as their saviour in order to show their obedience to God and "enter" into the inheritance of the saints. hence the fighting over the "body" of moses...scripture
Sorry mylelaine....I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you believe the Israelites that did not go into the Promised Land 3,500 years ago are walking among us today?
myelaine

dear Mary...
yes I do...and I believe it was insight given to me by God. I have no explaination as to why it was given to me or even if this insight was given to me only. Yes "moses" is "here" on JWN...still struggling in unbelief. As for all the israelites; I don't know that they are all here or not.
love michelle

Rich Man and Lazarus

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