Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

james46888

"Thanks for answering my questions"
No problem :)

"Do you have a verse or two to support this?"

Well, you yourself cited some verses showing that both believers and unbelievers would go to sheol at death, but we know some verse describe sheol in not so nice terms (Job 26:5; Isaiah 14 being just two), so we infer from this that unbelievers experience punishment there, whereas believers naturally would not experience this (Job 14:13; Psalm 73:24; the "translation" of Enoch & Elijah et al).
Vander: How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?
James: "Faith/repentance towards God."
Vander: Which verse in the account supports this?
Answer: Remember we should take into account and not lose sight of the wider view of Scripture which indeed does state that repentance saves one from punishment. Therefore, it would not actually matter if it was not mentioned in the story, particularly in a high-context society. However, that said, verse 29 mentions that the rich man's brothers (like himself) had failed to listen to the prophets, which shows their lack of belief and unrepentance (verse 30).
Vander: Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?
James: "Lack of the above"
Vander: That's not the reason Abraham gives. The only reasoning is: Good now, bad later.
Answer: But why is he "bad" now?. What do the Scriptures as a whole tell us about faith producing works? You can't read "out" (as opposed to "reading in") what the rest of the Bible says and isolate Luke 16 from the wider context. Again verses 29-30 are key, since they deal with why his brothers will go there to join him.
Vander: Didn't he demonstrate genuine moral concern for his lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?
James: "Maybe, but I don't see why that means he escapes punishment."
Vander: Punishment for what?
Answer: Sin, unrepentance.
Vander:Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water if it would not even begin to cool his tongue?
James: Knowing it would be too much to be asked to be set free completely, he asked for the solace of one drop of water.
Vander: Can't legitimately get into the rich man's head....but one drop would certainly not bring solace of any kind.
Answer: Really? How do we know the extent of his pain (if taken as a literal picture)?. He was asking for a slight decrease in pain because he knew it'd be foolish to ask for more than that.
Vander:Does that mean that those in hell catch the attention of and converse with those in heaven?
James: No, both the rich man and Abraham were in sheol.
Vander: Excellent. So are you saying that the people CURRENTLY in the bad side of hell can communicate with those on the other side?
Answer: No, because believers who die no longer go to sheol but, rather, to heaven.
Vander:OK, could hell be an enjoyable place for the righteous as they see and hear the cries of the tormented?
Answer: Well, as I say, believers are not in sheol anymore (it changed at the resurrection of Jesus), so it be better if you phrased it in the past-tense by saying, "Did those righteous in sheol have happiness even though they could hear the cries of the damned?" Answer: Remember at our death we have the mind of Christ in full operation (no longer hindered by the "flesh") and thus we see things as God does, so maybe it won't affect our enjoyment. Also, as JP Holding says in response to soul-sleep advocate Samuel Bacchiocchi when offering a similar objection: "Other than that Bacchiocchi has an emotional objection about how we could not be happy in heaven if we could see people tormented in hell, but that's rather off base from Jewish perceptions and amounts to anachronizing his modern individualism on the text."
theMadJW

The Reverend Billy Willy explains it ALL- http://www.themadjws.com/goofiplantions.htm
brotherdan

There are alot of things taught in the NT that seem to have "pagan origins". Take for example Peters use of the term "Tartarus" at 2Peter 2:4.
Or what about Judes quotations of the supposedly uninspired book of Enoch in Jude 14.
Hell is VERY much taught in the NT. And to try and twist it to ONLY include the grave is to avoid the facts.
brotherdan

Also, why would Jesus use a metaphore or parable about Hell knowing that it was a pagan belief or doctrine?
theMadJW

The KEY is in the account; who in the crowd were WEARING purple and linen?
brotherdan

The KEY is what Jesus actually said, MadJW. Or do you not believe what Jesus actually said?
brotherdan

If the soul of the dead is dead. Why are they spoken of as being alive after they died MadJW? Why would Jesus even allude to a false teaching. What if I used a similar illustration today regarding one man that went to heaven and one man that went to firey torment on the platform? Would I get counseled for alluding to a false teaching?
Vanderhoven7


Hi James,
Again thanks for your comments.
I think it is helpful to look at sheol in broader context. You quote two verses which don't mention torment or give us any kind of a picture similar to that found in Luke 16. Here is what I have found in my studies concerning Sheol.
FACTS THAT BECOME APPARENT ABOUT SHEOl:
Sheol is located downward in the dust of the earth. (Job 17:13-16)
Both the good and the bad go to Sheol.
Jacob and his sons go to Sheol. (Gen.42:38)
David planned to rest in Sheol. (Ps.16:9-10)
David desired his enemies also go down to Sheol, not in peace, but
in blood. (I Kings 2:6,9)
By going to Sheol, Job misses God's wrath. Job actually asks to be
hidden in Sheol to escape God's anger. (Job 14:13)
The terms death, the grave, and destruction are so closely bound as to be often interchangeable in the text (Pr.15:11, 24; 27:20).
Not too much goes on in Sheol.
There is no wisdom or knowledge there and no activity or work for
those who go down to silence. (Eccl.9:10 Ps.6:5 Ps. 31:17)
No person praises God from Sheol (Ps.6:5; 88:10-12)
Figurative language is often associated with Sheol.
Beds are made In Sheol. Maggots are spread beneath the dead and worms cover them like a blanket. (Is.14:11)
Sheol is even personified.
It is pictured as snatching sinners and robbing people of their
remaining years. (Job 24:19);
Sheol has an appetite. It opens its mouth without limit.
It is never satisfied. (Pr.27:20) Sheol is naked before God.
Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits. i.e. ruling
MOST IMPORTANT: God will redeem souls from Sheol's power. (Ps.49:15)
Sheol will not have the last word. Sheol is going to be plagued and death is going to be destroyed! (Hos.13:14 KJV) Sheol is not eternal therefore, but temporary. God is with the righteous in Sheol and His promise is not to abandon them there forever. (Ps.16:10; 139:8).
Vander
Vanderhoven7

Hi Dan,
<<Also, why would Jesus use a metaphore or parable about Hell knowing that it was a pagan belief or doctrine?>>
I believe Jesus painstakenly retold the very literal story that the Pharisees told to dismantle their theology which they used to justify not helping the poor in Israel. This was their doctrine; their tradition.

LET'S LOOK AT TRADITION: WHAT ELEMENTS OF PHARISAIC TRADITION ARE INCLUDED IN THIS STORY?
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM: History confirms that Hades (Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Sheol) was originally understood by the Jews to be, “the ultimate resting place of all mankind". (Vine's OT Dictionary) The Hebrew scriptures relegated the good as well as the wicked to this location at death. (Gen. 42:38, Ps.16:9-10, Job 14:13).
The idea that sheol was not a place of slumber, but of conscious experience first developed in the intertestamental period with the influence of Greek culture and philosophy upon Judaism. The apparent enigma of the righteous experiencing sheol (Hades) along with the wicked was then tentatively resolved, in some but not all rabbinical circles, by compartmentalizing sheol into two distinct regions. As The New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology states, "With the infiltration of the Greek doctrine of immortality of the soul, paradise becomes the dwelling place of the righteous during the intermediate state."
In Jesus' day, the part of Hades where the righteous were detained was commonly referred to by the Pharisees as Abraham's Bosom. This was a place of rest and banqueting where the souls of the righteous enjoyed "intimate fellowship with the father of the race (Abraham), who is still alive and blessed in death."
PLACE OF TORMENT: While the righteous were segregated and awaiting redemption in a part of sheol having paradisiacal dimensions, Pharisaic tradition consigned the wicked to an area of sheol where punishments were applied commensurate with one's performance in life. This traditional belief which similarly developed during the intertestamental period is clearly documented in the Apocrypha (e.g. Judith 16:17) and the Pseudepigrapha (e.g. II Enoch 40:12). Jewish literature (i.e. religious folklore) circulating in the first century often graphically detailed the retributive misery of the dammed in Hades. For example, licentious men were spoken of as hanging by their genitals, women who suckled their young in public, as hanging by their breasts, and those who talked during synagogue prayers, as having their mouths filled with hot coals.
A point worthy of note here, is that when Jesus used the terms "Abraham's Bosom", and "Torment" in reference to Hades, he was employing terms and concepts not rooted in scripture, but in rabbinical tradition. He was using terms fully comprehended by the Pharisees and clearly endorsed by their teachings about the afterlife. And equally important, Abraham's Bosom, and Torment were terms the Pharisees used regularly to justify their total neglect of the poor.
HISTORICAL NOTE: That the view of hell depicted in Luke 16 was an integral part of first century Pharisaic tradition is nowhere more clearly delineated than in the following excerpt written by Josephus, (himself a Pharisee) to explain the Jewish concept of Hades to the Greeks.
Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region...allotted as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to everyone's behavior and manners... while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined. For there is one decent into this region...the just are guided to the right hand and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor any briers there; but the countenance of the Fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence... they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it. (The Works of Flavius Josephus, William Whiston, A.M., Translator ) (Underscoring mine)
Now assuming that justification for the Pharisee's indifference to the poor was drawn from their tradition and not from the scriptures, Jesus had a choice of doing one of two things to combat their rationale. He could either reason with the Pharisees from scripture to prove their tradition was unsound, or he could enter into their tradition with them, mimic it with mastery and expose its absurdity. Jesus chose the latter course because He knew that reasoning with the Pharisees would prove futile.
The question is - how did the Pharisees use their traditional teachings about Sheol to justify themselves (to look holy) while ignoring the needs of the poor. And, how does the story of the rich Man and Lazarus unravel their theology/tradition of men?
Vander
PSacramento

It's really easy to take things out of context and make them seem something they are not or were not meant to be, like the often remarked verse from Ecclestiastics.
Thing is that we do see a "progression" or "change" of views of the afterlife over the centuries and leading to the coming of Christ.
That said, when discussing the views that Jesus had, its best to stick with what we have as recored of what he said.
He warned about being fearful of that which could kill the soul, so yes, the soul can be killed, which means that though it has potential to be immortal, it is not "inherently" Eternal, it can be killed.
But in regards to this parable, what did Jesus actually say?
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. g The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. h 24 He called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.’ 27 He said, ‘Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.’ 30 He said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Rich Man and Lazarus

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