Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Georgia,

    When we read the story at face value we see Jesus preaching hellfire (Hadesfire) to the Hellfire preachers of the day. He told their story right back to them....but with an important twist. Jesus' story ended with the Pharisees in their own version of hell.

    When we read the previous parable (Luke 16) we find God commending a covetous and totally self-serving dishonest steward (Pharisees) and then encouraging everyone else to make friends of the mammon of unrighteous as they did for eternal heavenly approval. Note from their reaction that the Pharisees did not take this story at face value; they knew this satirical parable was told against them and their covetousness.

    Vander

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Welcome strypes!

    Has anyone thought to just read the passage in luke 16 at face value? Why is it folks want to make it so complecated?

    I read it at face value. It only becomes complicated if one tries to explain it away.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Chalam,

    Before you denegrate anything but a surface reading of Luke 16 - here are a few simple (non-complicated) questions for you to consider about this account.

    1. Why did Jesus preach hellfire to the hellfire preachers? Was He trying to scare the scarers?

    2. Where did the term "Abraham's Bosom", the concept of angels dragging people off to to the bad side of Hades and there being a wide gulf between two sections of Hades, originate if not found in the entire Old Testament? Was this a Bible story or a Pharisaic story Jesus was telling?

    And here's the clincher:

    3. How did the Pharisees and other teachers of the law maintain the appearance of holiness (justify themselves before men...see verse 15) without having to lift a single finger to help the destitute? (In fact...their story was, that if they did help the poor, they would be crossing that impassable gulf and would thereby lose their holiness). They actually made void the word of God by their tradition. Since they would not hear the word of God, but onlt their tradions, Jesus entered their tradition with them and turned their theology upside-down. (Oh no, I partially answerd my own question.)

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    OK Everybody,

    So I don't believe people are suffering in Hades, tongues burning, conversations going on between people on the good side and bad side of hell as well pitiful screams and pleas for help pouring over the chasm....just as I don't believe God will commend covetous swindlers who justify their actions before men.

    But, even if we allow that the literary form of this account is historical narration, we have no idea how long the suffering in Hades lasts. Nor can we assume that this is the fate (however temporary) of every unbeliever during the intermediate state. We must add to the word of God, our traditions if we determine and preach beyond this account. Then we become like the JWs who happily add their traditions to the word of God.

    And, Oh some can get so upset, and even deny you are a Christian if you don't belive in torment as the punishment for human sin.

    Many have become as self-righteous as the JWs about non-critical beliefs...as if belief in eternal torment was a measure of a man's relationship and love for Jesus Christ.

    But there I go a-ramblin

    Vander

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Lets look at it this way, what would a 1st century Jew or gentile, hearing this story take from it?

    What did THEY believe Hades was?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi PS,

    That depended on who their authority was, the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Those who held to Pharisaic doctrine tended to believe the horror stories about the afterlife.

    But you haven't addressed where did the horror stories came from in the first place. Before developing a line of reasoning, perhaps you could take a stab at my three questions.

    Vander

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    When we are looking to interpret ANY lesson or story from a time period, we need to understand what people of that time period thought and believed and how the words and images woudl play out TO THEM.

    Hades was the greek name given to the place where the dead went, it was divided between the home of hades ( god of the underworld), The Elysian fields where the righteous went and Tarturus, where the non-righteousor fallen went and Asphodel.

    Of course, as time went by peopel got different views of different things an expressed them in different ways, not always with consistency.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades

    And of course:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham%27s_bosom

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Thanks PS,

    That's a lot of reading fella.

    Perhaps you could summarize for us the intertestemental (i.e. extra-biblical) as well as pagan (Greek, Babylonian etc.) origins of torment in Sheol/Hades. :o)

    Vander

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    At the time of Jesus, the Pharisees were teaching the following about what happens to a person after death (source: the first century Jewish historian, Josephus, in his discourse to the Greeks regarding Hades)

    For the sake of accuracy, it should be pointed out that Josephus did not write this. This is a mistaken attribution that arose in late antiquity. It is now generally thought to have been written by Hippolytus in the third century AD. The notion of a blessed afterlife in Abraham's bosom however appears in the Testament of Abraham.

    Josephus does present information on the eschatological beliefs of the Essenes, Pharisees, and Sadducees twice in Bellum Judaicum (2.153-165) and in Antiquitates (18.14-18). The similarity between the two passages, and their literary position in the text, suggests that Josephus is using an earlier source. The same information is presented in a closely parallel way by Hippolytus (Haereses 9.26-29), and it is generally thought that Hippolytus was using the same source that Josephus used, and more faithfully preserved the original wording of the source. There is much evidence that Josephus' main source for this part of his narrative in Antiquitates was Nicolaus of Damascus (first century BC), and so the latter was likely the direct source for the descriptions given by both authors.

    With regard to the Essenes, we read that the Essenes teach that "souls persevere, forever immortal ... becoming entangled in bodies as in prisons" (Josephus, B.J.), and that "they acknowledge that the flesh will rise again and that it will be immortal, in the same manner as the soul is already immortal. And they maintain that the soul, when separated in the present life, departs into the one place, which is well ventilated and lightsome, where they say it rests until judgment. And this locality the Greeks were acquainted with by hearsay and call it the 'Isles of the Blessed' " (Hippolytus, H.). Josephus adds that this is an "abode beyond the sea" where "the eternally gentle west wind refreshes it as it blows in from the ocean," whereas the wicked are "set apart in a dark and wintry recess filled with never ceasing punishments". This description is strongly Hellenized, drawing on Platonic and traditional Greek ideas, but it is very close to Essene ideas found in Enochic literature and in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes had their own notion of the immortality of the soul and the Book of Watchers (third century BC) describes the abode of the spirits of the righteous and wicked in strongly similar terms: the righteous reside beyond the great sea beyond where the sun sets in the west and are given a spring of water with light on it, whereas the wicked are separated and set apart from them in their own chambers (1 Enoch 22). This notion is clearly reflected in the statements by Josephus and Hippolytus, and it clearly is related to the conceptualization of the abode of the dead in the parable of Rich Man and Lazarus. It should be noted that the rather geographical depiction of Sheol in the Book of Watchers was superseded by more cosmic conceptions in later sources, such as 4 Ezra (late first century AD), which has the righteous and the wicked in separate locales in Hades (4:35-42, 7:80-99), the wicked going directly to punishment than habitation. There however was also the idea that the storehouse for the post-mortem righteous was located in heaven (as it is in Revelation 6:9-11), and this idea was apparently common to the Pharisees (cf. the teaching of R. Eliezer b. Hyrcanus in b. Shabbat 152b).

    With regard to the Pharisees, we read in Hippolytus that they "acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh and that the soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will be punished forever in unquenchable fire" (H.), and the same idea is presented by Josephus who says that the Pharisees believe that "souls have immortal power, and there are punishments and rewards under the earth, for those whose devotion in life has been either vice or virture. For the latter there is appointed an eternal imprisonment" (Ant.), such that "the souls of the wicked are chastised by everlasting punishment" (B.J.), whereas for the former there is appointed "an easy passage to revivification" (Ant.). The eschatology of the Society is rather close instead to that of the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection. According to Josephus, "their teaching is that souls perish together with bodies" (Ant.), and they do away with the idea of "the survival of the soul and punishments down in Hades and rewards" (B.J.), and as Hippolytus represents his source, the Sadducees "deny that there is a resurrection, not only of the flesh but also they suppose that the soul does not endure. It is only the life and it is on account of this that man has been created .... After death one expects to suffer nothing, either bad or good, for there will be a dissolution of both soul and body and man passes into non-existence, similarly also with the material of the animal creation" (H.).

    As to whether earliest Christianity drew more from either of these different parties of Judaism, I agree with Boccaccini that the Jesus movement is closest to Essenism than to the other groups. It stands very close to the kind of Essenism responsible for the Book of Parables, which was a possible influence on the synoptic gospels (especially wrt eschatology). The heavy Enochic influence in Jude (attributed to a "brother of Jesus") is also one indicator of this, as is the description of John the Baptist in the synoptic gospels and in Josephus. The kinship of the parable of Rich Man and Lazarus with the Enochic conception of Sheol is thus consistent with this. Note too that this parable is original to Luke and is absent in the other gospels, and parallels between Luke and the Epistle of Enoch (particularly pertaining to the theme of the rich and the poor) have been noted by Nickelsburg and other specialists of Second Temple Jewish literature. It is clear that the parable is not critical of the eschatology it espouses, nor uses it purely in a figurative sense, but that the eschatology is presupposed in order to describe the rich as having their comeuppance. The moral it presents to the rich is that they must change their ways or they will have their roles reversed after death. This illustrates the aphorism that the "first shall become last and the last shall become first" (Mark 10:31, Matthew 19:30, 20:16, Luke 13:30). JW eschatology voids this moral because both the rich man and Lazarus would have equal opportunities in the resurrection recreation, so it doesn't matter how good or poor a life one leads in this life .... as long as one dies before Armageddon.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Leolaia,

    Thank you for sharing your research. Excellent and well presented.

    If there is a weakness though, it would be in the moral you suggest is being taught through this account.

    You said:

    <<It is clear that the parable is not critical of the eschatology it espouses, nor uses it purely in a figurative sense, but that the eschatology is presupposed in order to describe the rich as having their comeuppance. The moral it presents to the rich is that they must change their ways or they will have their roles reversed after death. >>

    It seems to me that there are rich people that love the Lord and will be with Abraham in the afterlife. I would say that neither wealth nor poverty is an indication of ones love for or approval of God. Abraham, Job, Joseph, David etc. were all very rich and influential people. Certainly their comeuppance will not resemble that of the Rich Man in this account. And how about people like you and me? Are we financially not much better off and eat better than 90 percent of the worlds inhabitants? Conversely, poverty and sickness are no guarantee of holiness or approval from above either.

    Poverty and sickness were looked upon as a sign of sin and judgment by the Pharisees. But, the Pharisees at least gave hope to the destitute, teaching that they, accepting God's judgments, would find themselves at death, in a very literal (but extra-biblical) place they referred to as, "Abraham's Bosom". So Jesus put the destitute Lazarus right where the Pharisees assigned him in the afterlife. In effect then, Jesus was, like you, teaching Pharisaic doctrine. "Bad now, good later".

    Something wrong with this picture - no?

    Vander

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