For Perry: There was no global flood, so stop looking for Noah's Ark

by BurnTheShips 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    To what end? One thing I've noticed here is that there are still a great many people who has this all obsessive need to be right. Perhaps the great flood is a complete myth, or perhaps it was a local phenomenon that the ancients believed happened over their whole world, or perhaps it truly was worldwide. In any case, it is good folklore to be sure.

    It wasn't worldwide. That's the point Gary.

    I live in a country that was not flooded 4000 years ago. It is a living and archaeological testament to that fact and you can go into any of our museums and universities or to the Department of Conservation and verify it.

    To assert that there wasn't a flood isn't attacking a person, any more than asserting that the WT isn't chosen by God is attacking a Jehovah's Witness.

    Whether, or not, Jesus was lying, or is illigitimately portrayed as lying now, or in the past, is an issue that has to be understood in light of the fact that there was no global flood in Noah's day.



  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    "A very real possibility was that the animals Noah put in the Ark were not full grown."

    I have no response other than this link:

    I'm Cartman and Perry is David.

    Sorry I can't embed.

  • garyneal

    LWT, BS,

    Fair enough guys, perhaps my choice of the word attack was poor but like I said, have at it.

  • Perry


    So, getting back to the faith of BTS (by the way where is he?)

    So far the list of parable tellers is growing:

    We have:

    1. Moses who deceived the Jews with it

    2." Other literature produced in the era of the Second Temple has very similar information to that shown in Genesis. The most comprehensive description of the flood (external to Genesis) can be recited from 'The Book of Jubilees'.

    3. "An account of Noah and the flood is also given in 'Antiquities of the Jews' (by Flavius Josephus). "

    4. "The same flood account also appears in certain scrolls of the Sea Scroll library."

    5. Jesus

    6. "Jewish philosopher: Philo Judaeus (c. 25 BC - 45 AD). The commencement of the great flood on the first day of spring is manifest from a portion of his second dissertation on the book of Genesis--as follows:

    "... the deluge fell on the day of the vernal equinox... the first man who was produced out of the earth was also created at the same season of the year, he whom the divine writer calls Adam... Since, therefore, the first beginning of the generation of our race, after the destruction caused by the deluge, commenced with Noah, men being again sown and procreated, therefore he also is recognised as resembling the first man born of the earth... putting them to shame because he would, unquestionably, never, after he had created the universe... have destroyed all the men who lived on the earth... if it had not been for the preposterous excess of their iniquities." (Questions and Answers on Genesis, Part 2:17)."

    7. Peter

    8. The writer of Hebrews (Paul?)

    That's quite a "parable".

  • garyneal
    To assert that there wasn't a flood isn't attacking a person, any more than asserting that the WT isn't chosen by God is attacking a Jehovah's Witness.

    Okay, apparently there is some sort of misunderstanding here.

    Asserting that there is no global flood is not an attack. Calling a person out more than once could be perceived as an attack. To me, my statement had nothing to do with debating beliefs on the basis of facts but singling a person out. Perhaps this thread could've been addressed to all Bible believers or at least to Perry and others. At least then, I would not have perceived it as an attack on an individual.

    And for the record, I never apologized for stating that it was an attack.

  • designs

    A lot of legends came from this story. The Babylonian Talmud recounts the bird Phoenix talking to Noah about food and its nest. The Jewish Mishnah and Tosefta taught the God carefully and systematically killed humans before killing animals and birds. Jewish folklore also states that Og, Amorite giant, lived in a special compartment in the Ark and survived till Moses came along to do battle with him....he is slain at the battle of Edrei. Yes folks Og is taught to be 3000 years old in the folklore.

    And not to be outdone the LDS teach that the archangel Gabriel was Noah...or was it Noah was the archangel Gabriel, have to reread my Book of Mormon.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep


    Is it really 'calling them out', or is it just getting their attention and trying to keep distractions, like us, to a minimum?

    I notice that you didn't object to Design's Trinity thread which is designed to single out anti-trinitarians.

    I don't have a problem with people wanting to debate an issue with a single person, or group, in a public forum. In fact, I prefer that, rather than going to PM, which I have refused to indulge in when 'called out' by a poster, preferring to make a fool of myself in public if I deserve that label.



  • sabastious
    That's quite a "parable".

    You can't use sequels to the Flood Parable as proof of that it wasn't a parable. So remove Moses, Jesus and Peter from that list of yours.


  • garyneal

    I notice that you didn't object to Design's
    Trinity thread
    which is designed to single out anti-trinitarians.

    That was not design's thread and if you notice, I actually commended Designs for not doing his usual "Out one cult, into another," hit and run that he normally does.

    I've been doing a lot of thinking on this whole manner and I realize that in many ways I am just as guilty of saying things in regards to what witnesses believe as atheists and other non-theists say in regards to my beliefs. Mocking Perry as deluded, for example. I've done that to my wife as well as other witnesses and I realize that I need to stop that. I may not agree with someone else's beliefs but that gives me no permission to mock them in any way.

    Also, in regards to that thread you referenced, the end of that title was 'and Anyone Else.' On The Way Out similarly called out Perry on one of his threads, but he also added 'and any others who want to participate.' Also if you notice on that thread, I made a pretty hefty admission for a believer saying that I am as every bit a captive of a concept as a Jehovah's Witness.

    If anything comes out of this for me it is that I am learning that I need to have more compassion for individuals who's faith does match mine and who disagrees with me. Watching atheists label theists as 'deluded' is certainly teaching me this and I will watch myself more carefully in the future when I debate any religious doctrine or worldview with another individual.

    As always, feel free to call me out too if you think that I've crossed the line in any way. This goes for anyone on the board.

    Go well...

  • BurnTheShips

    Perry, this thread isn't about my faith. It isn't about Jesus. It isn't about Jonah. It isn't about dinosaurs.

    It isn't about the preservation of proteins in fossils, which is entirely possible.

    So let's stop going on these tangents. Let's stay on the subject.

    It is about the Flood, only the Flood, and just the Flood.

    Specifically, a global flood taking out all humanity except for 8 people...who happened to build a big boat, and kept a biological reserve for all animal life on the planet, and subsequently repopulated the species...around 4500 years ago.

    I maintain that this did not happen. If there had been a global catatrophe of this scale, the geological evidence would be undeniable. There was a large meteor impact millions of years ago. How do we know? Convincing geological evidence. Thousands of years ago, much of the northern hemisphere was covered in ice sheets. How do we know? Convincing geological evidence. Now, a global flood? No geological evidence. No paleontological evidence. No genetic evidence. No archeological evidence. Other than an account in Genesis, there is no evidence. On the contrary, all available evidence points to nothing like this happening. We have wide species diversity across continents. We don't see genetic bottlenecks in the vast majority of species dating to that time, nor in humans. We have evidence of human beings with uninterrupted culture on every continent at that time. So what is your evidence? Such a vast catastrophe taking place so recently would leave undeniable evidence. BTS

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