If the bible is god's handbook for man, why is it such gobbledegook?

by Aussie Oz 112 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry

    This discussion really hasn't addressed any facts, has it?

    Which part of this is in dispute?

    1.People told verbal stories about Jesus.

    2.The stories got passed around.

    3.About 70 years after the events of those stories people started writing them down.

    4.There were many variations, versions and opinions about Jesus, the stories and the writings.

    5.Early on, the Jews who believed in Jesus as the Messiah began clashing with non-Jews who accepted Jesus as more of a Greek demi-god.

    6.By the time Constantine was Roman Emperor the world of "christianity" was diverse, at odds, opinionated and divergent.

    7.Constantine tried to gather christian leaders together to obtain grounds for agreement and orthodoxy.

    8.Almost three centuries after Jesus, the Nicean Council created an Orthodox set of beliefs which emphatically split christians into one of two distinct groups: right and wrong (orthodox and non-orthodox.)

    9.The pressure and power of the Roman christians purged non-orthodox believers, banished them and marginalized their beliefs.

    10. The destruction of the Jewish center of worship in Jerusalem sent Jewish christians into hiding and allowed the Greco-Roman portion of Jesus believers to flourish and predominate.

    11. Anti-Jewish writing crept into the Jesus saga.

    12. The Roman Empire eventually split into the Italian and the Greek Orthodox. Rome vs Constantinople. Even though Rome "fell" in 476 A.D. Constantinople continued the power of the empire until the 13th century.

    13. The BIBLE emerged gradually as an assemblage of varied writings with attestations for and against. The letters of Paul were not holy at first but acquired that status eventually. By the time of Martin Luther there were 73 books in the Bible. Luther expunged all but 66 and wanted to get rid of Hebrews, James, Revelation and perhaps others.

    14. Not one single original, autograph writing exists on the face of the earth--BUT--all subsequent versions of the Bible are based on purported copies of copies of copies to a greater or lesser extent.

    15. Thousands of dissonant versions demonstrate we do not have a way of actually knowing what the original WORDS were or what they specifically said.

    16. ALL arguments based on proof-texts are factually prone to dispute without originals by which to check what is being argued. Therefore, all divisions, sects, disputes and denominations are equally good or bad as to text.

    17. Nothing can be proved by the Bible since nothing can be verified.

    18. Theologians are split into groups thus: rabidly dogmatic about the purity of scripture, cautious but determined to believe in principles of scripture and agnostic and indeterminate but interested historically.

    19. What you believe about the Bible has more to do with your personality than any holy facts.

    20. Intellectual honesty is the product of admitting facts even when they clash with what you desire.

  • donny

    Good post Terry and Oz. No matter how you look at it, it is a bunch of gobbledigook that some folks try their best to make sense of. I have heard scores and scores of people say "just trust in the Holy Spirit and he'll show you the way." Well I have listened to many folks who claim to be guided by the Spirit and their interpretations and beliefs are just as varied and mishmashed as those who are not guided by such.

    I myself for some time also prayed for such guidance and never felt a thing.


  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    I know it hasn't discussed facts like you mention Terry, but i am not after discussion on those sort of things... there are plenty of threads on those!

    What bothers me, is why as a whole, most of the 'holy bible' had to written down by men who some of did not understand what they were recording, in visions, portents, hallucinations, parables, tales, riddles and such, open to thousands of interpretations, IF it was gods handbook to mankind for them to come to know him and worship him and understand the past present and future plans he has in store.

    The defenders of the bible seem to being saying that all visions, portents, hallucinations, parables, tales, riddles and such will make sense if i just accept that it IS gods word without needing logical answers and get the holy spirit working on me.

    Assuming it is gods word,

    Why can't they just answer 'we dont know' or admit perhaps that it may be, not meant for the general salvation of all mankind?


  • tec

    I think I missed the point of your original post.

    I think Jesus is the Word of God.

    I think the bible testifies as a witness to Him. But Jesus, himself, is the word of God.

    (I have always stated this since I've been on this forum - I did not think of putting it in the words, 'the bible is a witness to Jesus and the truth', until another poster put it that way from another thread. Thank you )

    God sent Jesus to save the world through Him. I see nothing that says that God sent the bible to save the world through it.


  • cyberjesus

    Lets talk about the bible but lets nots quote anything inside because it upsets ozzie! :-) haha I think thats funny.

    I think your question starts with a bad premise. If God is so smart that he created us and he needed a users guide on how to obey him then he would have created a book that is direct, to the point and very easy to understand. period. An intelligent God that is perfect is gonna create everything perfect, even his letters are gonna be perfect.

    But this God, the god of the bible claims to be perfect but is not. His first creatures failed and rebelled against him. Satan his own son rebelled. Can you believe that thousands of angels rebelled against God himself? God damned it!

    Then he created humans and he fucked up again. Adam...failure, Eve...failure. their first son? failure. He failed at everything. Heck even Abraham made him change his mind. then after his mistakes he sends his son .... Hello!! why did you waited that long? why didnt you send him right after Adam sinned? he could have impregnated a Zebra for what is worth, who cares. Then Jesus could have been killed by Cain and voila. Humanity recovered! who cares what the angels thought! Create more angeles for christs sake!

    So the bible is nots gods handsbook for man, thats why it is such goobbledegook!

    Gen 1:1. Mat 24:14 John 1:1..... you getting mad? :-)

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    THANKYOU Cyberjesus!

    exactly! It cannot be the word of an inteligent perfect god!

    You are spot on with what my starting point was... and had to be because it is/was, the last vestige of believing in 'god' left in me. To conclude by logic that the book i held in such high esteem and would trust over all counter evidence is nothing more than disjointed stories by goat herders and fishermen on some sort of trip at times was not easy to deal with at first.

    As for scripture (and you made me laugh), it has its place in discussion of the varied subjects and doctrine no doubt. And i can handle that no worries.

    But when it is given as the ANSWER to my questions, as an authority on some subject, NO!

    I truly honestly can't understand how their mind works, when told i do not trust the bible, they quote a passage as if that will somehow make me change my mind. If i say ''god hates us'', they will quote some verse that says ''god is love''... duuuuuurrrr why didnt i see that! The bible says so, so it must be so...

    They cannot offer one actual piece of logic, cannot admit that they dont know why the book is so mysterious. Cannot admit that the message could have been relayed a whole simpler and accuratly. Because if they admit they do not know, then they have to start looking at the holes in it too. Far easier for them to just conclude that they got the spirit and hey presto, instant understanding. ''You dont get it coz you aint got the spirit!''

    cheers OZ

  • donny

    And remember, all you need to defeat God's army is use iron chariots.

    And the Jehovahwas withJudah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Judges 1:19

  • Balsam

    OMG, Broken Promises that is just so funny. I had to save the for my son he will love it.


  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    Does my hearse count as an 'Iron Chariot'?

    perhaps i should take it to the next convention...

  • designs


    9., 10., 11.

    JWs and and particularly Fundamentalists have a hard time with a Jewish Jesus. Look at their artwork for proof, as JWs we had the Hollywood hunk version from the 60s on. I asked the Baptists and Fundamentalists here to look at their Hymn Books and other Literature that depicts their Jesus, no replies, because when they looked they were stunned to realize what a Nordic looking guy was being portrayed. Or look at the Byzantine Jesus or Michelangelo's Jesus. There are a hundred versions if there is one and that sadly adds to the gobbledegook.

    Christianity has been intent at Historical Revisionism, they make the Society look like amatuers.

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