Reading peoples hearts

by highdose 34 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

If I may add to what dear tec and wasblind said (may you all have peace, and thank you!), this issue was about three (3) things:
1. Abraham's faith... IN GOD'S PROMISE:
"... it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be..."
The question here was whether or not Abraham truly BELIEVED that promise, had FAITH in it (i.e., "the ASSURED EXPECTATION of the thing hoped for, the EVIDENT demonstration of reality... though NOT beheld"). The Most Holy One of Israel had PROMISED Abraham that by means of THIS son, Isaac (by, Sarah, the wife Abraham LOVED)... Abraham would have more seed. As the sands of the sea. Abraham had every right to HOPE for fulfillment of that promise, therefore... and thus, have an assured expectation of it. Why? Because... Sarah CONCEIVED Isaac (at age 90!)... based on a PROMISE from God... which promise was FULFILLED. Isaac's conception and birth was the "evident demonstration"... of the reality that such seed WOULD come into existence... THROUGH him... even though that seed had not come into existence ("though not beheld")... although God was now seemingly asking something that would make it virtually impossible!
2. My Father, the Most Holy One of Israel knew that Abraham loved Him. The question was... how MUCH? God tested Abraham's faith in this way in order to find that out. He had to be CERTAIN that Abraham was the man He (God) knew he (Abraham) was: one whose love for his own flesh (Isaac) was NOT greater than his love for the Most Holy One of Israel:
"... he that has greater affection for son...than for me is not worthy of me." (Certainly, if this applies to the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, how much MORE would it apply to the MOST Holy One of Israel, his God and Father, JAH of Armies!)
WHY did this "affection" need to be tested? Why did it matter? Because:
3. My Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, was going to sacrifice HIS Son, thus HIS "seed"... my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... for Abraham. First and foremost. And for Abraham's seed, second... because of His love for Abraham (which is WHY there are 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel"). And, third... for the world: those NOT of Abraham... or Isaac... or Jacob... or Judah... but who put FAITH... in the PROMISE made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah... and David. Because of HIS love... for the world (John 3:16, 17).
For this, all it took was for ONE man from among earthling man to demonstrate... HIS faith in God's promise regarding that sacrifice (i.e., the "seed" that was to BE that sacrifice). Abraham... was that man. Not only was he to believe in that seed (Christ)... but that seed was PROMISED to come through Isaac. Abraham not only had to "exercise" faith in that promise, that it would come through Isaac... but it would be fulfilled EVEN if Isaac were sacrificed first. He had to "demonstrate" HIS "assured expectation"... in this, the "thing hoped for": a reconcilation to God... and return to the status lost by Adham, by means of the Seed, Christ.
But what of today? What of those who "hear" a "voice" telling them to kill their child... for whatever reason? Or kill anyone for ANY reason (other than self-defense/defense of others)? The ONLY "sacrifice" that the Most Holy One of Israel sanctioned... EVER... was that of HIS OWN SON. No other. Not even Isaac. The Most Holy One of Israel does not tell us to kill our children... for ANY reason. He doesn't even tell us to SHUN our children... for ANY reason. How do we know? Because TODAY... He speaks to us by means of HIS Son... and that Son (1) NEVER said, taught, or required any such thing... as can be found in what is recorded of him (and he is recorded to have said that everything HE did, he learned from the Father and he did what he saw the Father doing)... and (2) NOR does he when he speaks to one directly! He cannot. Why? Because... he is the LIFE (John 14:6)... and the source of life. NOT Death... or the source of death. THAT, dear ones, is our Adversary, the one called "Satan" and "Devil."
What, then, "... should a [christian] do if he suddenly hear [the voice of God] telling him to slit the throat of a family member?"
If s/he truly is a christian s/he would simply OPPOSE it and, in the name of God/Christ, tell its source to go away, move on, get lost, take a hike/powder... and leave her/him be. And... it would. Because it is the christian that has authority over such a source, not the other way around! Certainly, if those who do NOT know Christ (who are not known BY Christ) can cast out demons, those who ARE known by Christ can!
But why would s/he "simply" do this? Because s/he would KNOW that:
1. It is NOT the voice of God, because although the Most Holy One of Israel USED to speak to Israel through His Prophets, He NOW speaks... through His Son... who is His Word and Holy Spirit. (John 1:14; Hebrews 1:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Revelation 19:13). If s/he were unsure (because, among other things, Satan "keeps transforming himself into an angel of light"), s/he would question the voice and demand that it reveal itself as to its true identity (Mark 5:9; Acts 9:5)...
2. That Son communicates with us (christians) by means of holy spirit ("living water"), which spirit would NEVER direct us to do an unrighteous act (John 4:14, 7:38; John 20:22;1 John 2:26, 27), and...
3. The Most Holy One of Israel IS "Love"... and that His Son IS "the [Tree of] Life"... and that God GAVE that SON... as the FULL AND COMPLETE "sacrifice"... once and for all time... so to even make such a directive would be IMPOSSIBLE... because it would have absolutely NO "value" or benefit (and if the argument is "Yeah, what about the things Paul taught?" the response is, yes, well, nothing like that was EVER requested by Christ, who is the "exact representation" of God's very being... which Paul wasn't, isn't, and never will be).
If he were a christian, he would know these things by means of the anointing... that resulted in him being a "christian." (John 4:14, 7:38; John 20:22;Acts 2:2-4, 10:47;1 John 2:26, 27).
Forgive me, dear Bohm, but your question incited the spirit in me... because it asks what a "christian" should do. Just like not all who profess to be Israel ARE Israel (Revelation 3:9), not all who go by the designation "christian" ARE truly christians. A "christian" is not something one "becomes" because one joins a church or religion. Or because one professes to follow the teachings of Christ - that is a "disciple." Many of Christ's disciples left off following him (John 6:66); rather, a christian is a "chosen/anointed" (christ) "person" (ian)... such choosing/anointing done by an "anointing" with the "oil [of exultation]"... which "oil" is holy spirit: God's life force, which is manifest in His breath, blood, and semen... and referred to by Christ as "living water." That is why is it referred to as being "poured out" upon those who receive it (Isaiah 44:3; Ezekiel 36:27; Zechariah 12:10; John 7:38, 39; Acts 1:5; 2:17, 18, 33). That is why those who receive such "oil" demonstrate their faith in it by drinking of it (by means of wine in representation of the "blood" of the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Holy Spirit and Son and Christ (chosen/anointed) of God... which blood he received from HIS God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies).
For those who NOT christians, the same can apply: they need only firmly and confidently oppose the voice... and it will go away. Problem is, most don't/won't. Rather, they "fear" such voices (and their sources)... and ultimately succumb. To the dishonor of and reproach upon the Most Holy One of Israel. But, then, that is the very PURPOSE of those voices... and goal of those whose voices make such directions. Flip Wilson's old line, "The Devil made me do it," notwithstanding, MOST ignorantly, falsely, and/or lyingly blame God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. For the voice... and the resultant tragedies. I ask you, what is the BEST way to undermind someone's reputation? Is it not to lie on/about them, or do horrible things either in their name or just outright blame them for it?
It is not the voice of God who tells people to do such terrible things. That is lie... and it is perpetuated by the father of the lie, earthling man's adversary, the one called "Satan" and "Devil."
Again, I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA
elderelite

Still an interesting thread. I read those letters to the branch and their responses with great interest. My question remains.. What is your contention on what Jah was asking? I'm sure it was there but I missed it somewhere along the way. I completely understand the comparison with Jephthah and the words used but what, specifically, do you think Jah was asking of Abraham? The branch has long held that this was a prophetic drama played out that pointed to Jehovah allowing his own son to be offered up on our behalf. Is your question related why Abraham was asked to play this drama out? or is is whether he was asked at all to play it out? It's clear the creator NEVER intended that the sacrifice be made but rather was giving us all a very real, human, comparison for what he was going to do for all man kind. My appreciation for the ransom of the Christ is enhanced beyond all words as a result of this account. It is the only account that on some level portrays the depth of the ransom from Jehovah's persecutive in a way that men can understand. How would a translating of the word sacrifice be consistent with the prophetic drama if Abraham's understanding was not an offering up of his son? The Christ had to die. For the drama to be consistent Abraham would have to have the understanding that his son was to die. Of course the blood of an imperfect man could never serve as a ransom, but it was not supposed to. It was being play out in a "illustrative way" as Paul points out. Abraham perhaps never understood the full significance of what he had been involved with but we do. It was done for all those after Christ sacrifice to enhance our understand. Perhaps I have missed the point of your argument and look forward to hearing what you have to say on the matter.
On an unrelated note to your original thought, it is the most disappointing aspect of this organization that we do not encourage questions. I give blind obedience to no one but God and I am sorry that you were DF"d over something like this.
goldensky

Dear Elderelite, I'm glad you are on this board.
dgp

Highdose wrote this:
If God wanted to know if Abraham really was faithful... then why didn't he use his abilty to look into his heart and find out? Instead of putting the poor man and his son through a near death/ murder situation???
Then someone else wrote

I guess and this is just a guess, God could read his heart, but God was testing his faith. No matter whats in our hearts there are at times we question our faith. So God wanted to see if Abraham had faith in him . Samething with job God knew his heart, his faith was put to the test
And yet somebody else wrote
"What should a christian do if he suddenly hear the voice of God telling him to slit the throat of a family member?"

That is not a hypothetical situation. it happends many times each year.

Should a christian:

Follow Abrahams example, just like God wanted abraham to do, and slit the throat of the family member in question? Disobay the voice, and per the story of abraham, not be counted faitfull.
I say: Wasn't God supposed to know the answer, since he knows it all? God wouldn't need to read Abe's heart. God already knew what would happen, even if Abe was doubting. But then, I wonder... suppose someone comes to your congregation and claims that God asked him to sacrify his only son. I guess many believers could get to think that the person making that claim is insane. And many non-believers, those that God wants to bring to the fold, would certainly think the man is wacko and the decent thing to do would be to send him to a mental institution. I am afraid a similar thing would happen with Abe's neighbors if they saw the man take his son with all the parafernalia necessary for a sacrifice. Would a God that knows it all make such a mistake, I mean, instilling that kind of thoughts into non-believer's minds?
What about a God that does futile things and plays with his dearly beloved? Remember Job? Didn't God know that he would not stray, yet he decided to destroy everything the man had, just for the sake of a stupid bet with Satan?
One more disturbing thought. This is in the Bible, which is the book I and other members of the birdfeed class are supposed to read for salvation. Did a God who knows it all never took into consideration that thoughts like these would cross my mind, and would, therefore, make me doubt?
AGuest

Dearest Elderelite... may you have peace! I would like to comment on a couple of your responses, if I may - thank you!
Abraham perhaps never understood the full significance of what he had been involved with but we do.
Abraham understood. He knew the Christ, because it was THROUGH Christ... the WORD of the Most Holy One of Israel... that God spoke TO Abraham. Abraham knew of the "city" that he was waiting for NEW Jerusalem. He KNEW is was one built not with hands and made not of sticks and stones, but one built BY that Son... and made of people, including that Son. (Hebrews 11:10, 13-16) It is a fallacy that my forefathers did not know the things we know of now. Yet, of Moses it says that he "esteemed the reproach OF THE CHRIST as riches greater than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked intently TOWARD the PAYMENT of the reward."
All of them anticipated the kingdom of God and NOT an "earthly" (i.e., physical) kingdom; they just did not anticipate being co-rulers OF that kingdom with its King and High Priest, Christ. That "covenant" was made later, starting with the 12 (yes, including Judas, who was later replaced by Matthias - NOT Paul, who was/is NOT one of the "twelve" - 1 Corinthians 15:5; note, Paul himself refers to the "twelve", yet, Judas was no longer alive).
It was done for all those after Christ sacrifice to enhance our understand.
This is also inaccurate. It was done, first, for Israel... starting WITH Isaac... and continuing up TO my Lord's walk in the flesh, THEN afterward, for all those who would faith in him... whether of Israel or the nations.
Dearest dgp... may you also have peace and may I also comment on what you state/ask - thank you!
I wonder... suppose someone comes to your congregation and claims that God asked him to sacrify his only son. I guess many believers could get to think that the person making that claim is insane. And many non-believers, those that God wants to bring to the fold, would certainly think the man is wacko and the decent thing to do would be to send him to a mental institution.
Would it not have been the same in that day? Meaning, isn't that the REASON Abraham told those who accompanied him and Isaac to stay put while he and Isaac went on ahead? Abraham did not carry out the task in "public" or even in front of his own servants. Unlike the sacrifice of my Lord, this was not to be a public display... because it was not ABOUT the faith of anyone other than Abraham... that the Most Holy One of Israel WOULD fulfill His promise regarding Isaac and the seed. Abraham had to show his love and willingness for God. Isaac also had opportunity to show HIS love (for his father, Abraham)... and HIS faith in the promise by his and willingness to BE sacrificed... although having been promised that the seed WOULD come through him.
I am afraid a similar thing would happen with Abe's neighbors if they saw the man take his son with all the parafernalia necessary for a sacrifice.
They saw that paraphernalia (well, at least the servants did); they just didn't see what "lamb" that was to BE the sacrifice.
Would a God that knows it all make such a mistake, I mean, instilling that kind of thoughts into non-believer's minds?
Those who accompanies Abraham and Isaac knew nothing. Perhaps they were told later, but by then the ram had been provided so whatever "close call" they would have feared was dealt with.
What about a God that does futile things and plays with his dearly beloved? Remember Job? Didn't God know that he would not stray, yet he decided to destroy everything the man had, just for the sake of a stupid bet with Satan?
You are in error: the Most Holy One of Israel didn't decide to destroy anything... nor did He destroy anything. May I ask that you read the account again, and perhaps more slowly? Because, although I know you don't intend to do so, you really are committing a skosh bit of slander here.
One more disturbing thought. This is in the Bible, which is the book I and other members of the birdfeed class are supposed to read for salvation.
Again, this is inaccurate. There is NO book which we are "supposed to read" for salvation. Salvation does not come from, through, or with any connection to a book. I know, I know... that's what "they" tell you. But they are liars. Salvation comes through Christ... and only Christ. Even the book says that. At one particular place it quotes the Christ in a manner that may help you understand what I mean (note, I will take it from the Message Bible - my husband LOVES that version, dear Sylvie, so THANKS!):
"You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you'll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me!And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren't willing to receive from me the life you say you want." John 5:39, 40
Did a God who knows it all never took into consideration that thoughts like these would cross my mind, and would, therefore, make me doubt?
He certainly did take such into consideration... which is why He SAID: "This is my Son, the beloved. LISTEN TO HIM." But did He also make you doubt? No, dear one... that's on you... perhaps with a little help from the one who is behind the compilation of the Bible (a contradictory and misleading set of writings, most of which (the "scriptures" that it contains, and not all of it is "scripture") cannot be accurately understood without guidance from Christ, the Holy Spirit, anyway. (Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45; Revelation 1:1)
Again, I bid you both peace... and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU (and they WILL say it!):
"Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies... which spirit is poured out by and from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of Israel, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... free!"
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
not a captive

God can read hearts--but we don't read God's heart very well.
The great horror that many feel when they read the OT is the blood and gore of it all.
The God that Jesus showed us was not that kind of God.
The God who "so loved the world that he gave his only be-gotten son" yielded that son to a world that so despised the gift that they killed Jesus.
Is it relevant to say that God did not kill his own child? He gave his son and both he and Jesus knew what would happen--but is that the same as killing him? If I gave myself as a hostage to save my brother, knowing the captors would kill me would my father be a murderer?
Is it too fine a point to make that Abraham was to learn and to demonstrate for us that giving his own hopes and his own beloved to God could only be grasped through this experience?
It is also important to me that the word burnt offering had no blood associated with it.
We are to be "holy living sacrifice" as Romans says. We do not kill nor do we kill ourselves --but we live wholey for God.
Are we humans able to grasp the length and heigth and breadth of God's love without a living example of it?
What words existed at the time to tell Abraham how much trust it would take to follow God's purpose?
What example was there to show us now the wrenching "born-again" in a death? Really we can't communicate it.
I can only say as others have: God is Love , He neither explicitly commanded a killing nor did he permit it.
If Jesus is the one to show us what God is like then let us see that even at death he did not say "Why did you kill me?" but "into your hand I give my spirit."
Is the test for any of us more this: can we trust God with our life? Is he the killer God of caprice and double -tongued trickery?
Bottom line on the Genesis story: If Abraham refused to use the word "sacrifice" in his story and only used the word "burnt offering", why not honor him and God by the distinction.
Or do we just prefer to think of God as an arbitrary SOB who tells us he is one thing, can run contrary to it and call it good anyway.
What real benefit is there believing that God always was able to make his thoughts clear to us? Jesus had to come to make it clear who his father really is and we still love to think of God as slightly monstrous?
God tempered the faith of Abraham and through the trial reassured Abraham and Us that he is trustworthy and his ways are truly higher than ours. If all we want to see is a very linear and crude test of obedience that requires God to suspend his own laws----what is wrong with us? The words allow for a different story.
I won't tell it anyother way.
not a captive

It's been great reading this discussion. I was supposed to vaccuum my apartment and clean the fridge this afternoon because the move is done now. I am just reluctant to leave the forum.
I love all you guys.
Keep on knocking, keep on asking.
I have til Tuesday to keep my internet--the countdown is on!
cantleave

How can mythical construct read anything, let alone hearts?
The Abraham myth is allogorical like much of the bilble.
Mad Sweeney

The great horror that many feel when they read the OT is the blood and gore of it all.
The God that Jesus showed us was not that kind of God.
And therefore. . . (the obvious conclusion is the one most often missed/ignored/tap-danced around). . . the God that Jesus showed us was NOT the Yaweh of the OT.
OR
Cantleave's right and it's all a mythical construct.
I go back and forth on the issue, honestly.
not a captive

With all due respect, cantleave, something more than a mythical construct has intervened in my life. The story that comes through the centuries about Abraham resonates as a true event even though it sounds like an allegory to you. I do believe it is intended to instruct us. But that doesn't mean that it can't be a true event.
If I told you about my life, you are free to call me a liar. If you tell me about your life, I can say the same to you. Niether of us will get any satisfaction out of it--And at this distance you only have my word for it. Or me, yours.
It takes a high degree of coincidence for an event to reach the level of convincing me that there is more to it than coincidence--Ther has to be an element more than that.
Personally, I am grateful that God helps fools like myself. I'm also glad that I realized that the greatest gift is that faith is personal--And I said that when the WTS tried to take my experience of God's mercy away from me. I told them that no corporation can give faith nor can it take faith away.
The Beauty of God is that he isn't a billboard. He does come to us personally. And if we are silly enough to believe that he cares then it is all very good for us.
Because often it is true that nobody else gives a damn and those that do can't get to you in time.

Reading peoples hearts

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