Getting understanding about the New Generation Light from a JW Elder

by garyneal 96 Replies latest members private

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello Gary,

    You need to take him to the heart of the matter, anything else is secondary.

    However God also provided hope, starting in Genesis 3:15, that the cooperative ones among His creation would be rescued or redeemed from futility by means of belief and action upon the ransom of Jesus, and be restored to complete unity with God.

    John 6:53-54 (New International Version)

    53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Matthew 26:26-28 (New International Version)

    26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

    27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the [ a ] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    Footnotes:

    1. Matthew 26:28 Some manuscripts the new

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • AWAKE&WATCHING
    AWAKE&WATCHING

    garyneal, please excuse me for the interruption....are you living in VA at this time?

  • Soldier77
    Soldier77

    Mental gymnastics at its finest. If JW's were in the *Olympics I'm sure they would be taking home the gold for each event.

    *Special Olympics

  • Ultimate Reality
    Ultimate Reality

    I've just been catching up on this thread.

    To boldly argue in favor that Exodus 1:6 proves that Jesus was taking about two overlapping groups within one 'generation' is to ignore the opposite argumentation that the same source (WT) has given for over 100 years.

    Before 2010 and certainly before 2008, no one in Brooklyn thought that Exodus 1:6 and Jesus statement about a generation had anything do with each other in seeking to create a new definition of the word 'generation' as used by Jesus. As of 2010, in WT-speak, a generation no longer means 'people born around the same time' (like siblings within 15 years or less of each other) but rather people that are 'connected to each other through a common experience.'

    In 2010, the generation are the 'anointed' and the common experience they share is that the lives of some post-1914 anointed 'overlapped' with those that saw the events of 1914. Therefore, Armageddon must come within the lifespan of the second group. In this way one generation (made up of two overlapping groups -- but no more than two) 'sees' 1914 and Armageddon.

    The scriptural justification for this is the new interpretation of Exodus 1:6. Of course, this ignores the simple and obvious meaning and context of what is actually recored in the gospel accounts. Jesus tells BOTH his disciples and the wicked religious leaders that their generation will see what we now know to be the end of the Jewish system in 70CE. That took place in less than 40 years of his statements, or, one generation -- generation in it's classic meaning.

    Now, why on earth would any JW seek to defend this non-sense when their spirit-directed source has made these statements over the years:

    CURRENT LIGHT: WT April 15, 2010 p. 10:

    [Generation] usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period...(Exodus 1:6).

    "[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation."

    ------------------------------

    Insight Vol 1 pg. 917:

    "A generation commonly refers to all persons who were born about the same time. (Exodus 1:6, Mt 11:16)"

    Notice that Exodus 1:6 is used in both definitions.

    -----------------------------

    Watchtower, November 1, 1995 p. 30-31 Questions From Readers:

    This article argues, among other things, that Jesus use of 'generation' could not be applied to the anointed. It goes on to state:

    "Those men [ the apostles ], who were not yet anointed with holy spirit nor part of the Christian congregation, certainly did not constitute either a "generation" or a race of people."

    ------------------------------

    Contrast that statement with the February 15, 2008 WT (p. 21-25) on the generation (this is also repeated in the April 15, 2010 WT article):

    "Jesus said that it was his disciples, soon to be anointed with holy spirit, who should be able to

    draw certain conclusions when they saw "all these things" occur. So Jesus must have been referring to

    his disciples when he made the statement: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these

    things occur."

    ------------------------------

    Compare that to the Watchtower June1, 1991 p.28:

    "Many scriptures confirm that Jesus did not use "generation" with regard to some small or distinct group, meaning only the Jewish leaders or only his loyal disciples."

    ------------------------------

    And finally, with regard to OVERLAPPING generations seeing different parts of 'the sign':

    Watchtower, October 15, 1988 p.4-5

    "Might it be, though, that the sign could occur over the span of many human generations? No. The sign is to occur during one particular generation. The same generation that witnessed the beginning of the sign will also witness its climax..."

    ------------------------------

    Now, before the 'defenders' get carried away: You CANNOT use the 'new light' excuse since this a bogus concept. Proverbs 4 has nothing to do with a progressive revealing of 'Bible truth'.

    Second, where is the scriptural evidence that we should apply a secondary meaning to Jesus' words? Where is the evidence for a 'parallel dispensation' with a secondary, larger fulfillment of the prophecy?

    The whole reason these convoluted interpretations are being created is that time ran out on all the 19th and 20th century chronological interpretations along with their supposed climaxes. New interpretations are needed to keep 1914 relevant in 21st century.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Awake and Watching

    Yes

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    That is what it is ALL about, Ultimate Reality: keeping 1914 relevant and maintaining the concept that they are all captive to.

  • TD
    TD

    Ultimate Reality,

    In line with what you point out, Robert Crompton in the book Counting the Days to Armageddon Jehovah's Witnesses and the Second Presence of Christ observes that current JW leaders don't seem to understand the interpretational methods upon which their predecessors formulated existing doctrine.

    Despite any criticism that might be legitimate, Fred Franz was an extremely intelligent, well read man. He clearly understood that Biblical interpretation was not an ad hoc affair, it was based upon certain rules and methods, which if violated, would yank the rug out from under your interpretation.

  • Ultimate Reality
    Ultimate Reality

    TD:

    I agree. There seems to be a major brain-drain at Bethel. While the interpretive methods of CT Russell and F Franz may have been fundamentally flawed, there was a method and the methodology was explained, often in detail.

    Contrast that with the new approach in the April WT: "[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation."

    All we get, is an 'evidently'. No argumentation or discussion as to why. No discussion on how this conclusion was formulated. No explanation on why all our previous spiritual food, formulated by holy spirit, is wrong. Usually, when 'evidently' appears, there is a conclusion made based on previously discussed EVIDENCE. No more, just an appeal to authority is all the GB has left.

    They have so many problems with their whole prophetic concept. My favorite is this from the 1984 book, Survival into a New Earth, page 185:

    "...in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude," or "great crowd," was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves."

    "...Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowd", including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth."

    Unfortunately, those early members are dead. Therefore, they were not actually part of the great crowd or God made a mistake. The third option is that using these dates to interpret the Bible has been a huge waste of time.

  • TD
    TD

    Good example

    When the "great crowd" was identified in 1935 it was thought that they had already come out of the great tribulation. It was thought that the great tribulation had started with the first world war and that "cutting short of the days" meant that the tribulation would stop for the sake of the elect but would resume again.

    When that idea was discarded in 1970 and the tribulation was moved forward in time to a future event, the great crowd doctrine was salvaged through the idea that the great tribulation would still occur in the lifetime of those who stood up in 1935 as that quote clearly shows. The great crowd doctrine therefore was joined like a Siamese twin to the idea of a generation as a single lifespan

    Regardless of what is done with Matthew 24:34 today, the older interpretation still persists in many JW teachings. The man with the writer's inkhorn is another good example.

    JW leaders either:

    a. Don't realize this dependency at all.

    b. Do realize this dependency but don't care about the integrity of the belief system as a whole.

    c. Do realize this dependency but aren't ready to make more serious changes yet.

    Another face of the same problem is that the immediate audience of the Olivet discourse were Jesus' own disciples which he refers to in the second person:

    Look out that nobody misleads YOU

    YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified

    Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU

    Therefore when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing..

    Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath..

    Likewise also YOU when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors

    Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away..

    Fred Franz understood that substituting a third person audience for these explict references to Jesus' disciples was not only the fallacy of the invisible interpreter, it could potentially create grammatical problems in the original text itself. (Which I tried to explain to djeggnog earlier.....)

    He also understood that typology was the way around this limitation. With typology, the interpreter basically says, "Yes the primary fulfillment was upon the immediate audience, but in so doing, they provided a type for a second, antitypical fulfilment."

    Franz was therefore very careful and studious about developing believable parallels between primary and secondary fulfillments. The legitimacy of further interpretation beyond the primary fulfullment is dependent on it.

  • today
    today

    How do you bookmark a thread?

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