marking, let us know
Getting understanding about the New Generation Light from a JW Elder
by garyneal 96 Replies latest members private
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garyneal
So far, after nearly two weeks, all I got was this little response on June 23 to my question below.
Scholar, did you get my last e-mail?
Yes I did. I haven’t forgotten. I expect to write soon.
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Mythbuster
marked
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cantleave
Waiting with baited breath.
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djeggnog
@garyneal @WingCommander
(This thread should be renamed "Getting no understanding about the New Generation Light from a JW Elder," since it is evident to me from reading his responses that he needs a bit more time to get the sense of what "this generation" means before he can provide an explanation to anyone.)
"[W]e do well to keep in mind several things about the word 'generation': It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about 'this generation'? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end." ["Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose" (w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14)]
At Genesis 7:1, reference is there made to Noah's generation ("After that Jehovah said to Noah: 'Go, you and all your household, into the ark, because you are the one I have seen to be righteous before me among this generation'"), and Noah, who was born in 2970 BC, would have been (and was!) 600 years old when the flood waters deluged the earth in 2370 BC. (Genesis 7:6) But the Bible indicates (Genesis 5:28), too, that Lamech, Noah's father, who was born in 3152 BC, gave birth to Noah when he was 182 years old (2970 BC), and that in 2375 BC, Lamech died at the age of 777, but while Lamech's life overlapped that of his son by 595 years, Noah's "generation" began with Noah's birth, and Noah's three sons, Japheth, Shem and Ham, were Noah's contemporaries when their father died in 2020 BC, some 350 years after the Flood, when Noah's generation came to an end.
So from the day that each of Noah's sons were born until the day their father died, Japheth, Shem and Ham were contemporaries of Noah, so for example, Japheth, who was born in 2470 BC, would have been a contemporary of Noah for some 450 years, so even though Noah and Japheth were not born of the same generation, they were both a part of "this generation" that were alive when the 120-year "countdown" began in 2490 BC marking the last days of that ancient world and when the Flood brought that ancient world to an end. Jesus parallels "the presence of the Son of man" with the 120-year period that culminated with the Flood, through which period, Jesus says, the people "took no note" of the message that Noah preached as to the end of that ancient world. (Matthew 24:38, 39)
Similarly, at Exodus 1:6, which refers to Joseph's generation ("Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation") is used to describe those who were Joseph's contemporaries, even though the verse itself doesn't use this word, which is evinced by the words "...and all that generation," which would not be limit "generation" to just Joseph and his 11 brothers, but would include Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who would also have been as much contemporaries of their father as were Joseph's nephews (and nieces), would they not? All of these were contemporaries of Joseph and thus a part of "that generation [of Joseph's]."
As I wrote elsewhere, there is no "1914 generation" and no "Armageddon generation"; there is but one "anointed generation" -- "this generation" of folks that lived contemporaneous to when the composite "sign" that Jesus provides in Matthew 24 and 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 appeared in 1914, and many of the people in this generation will still be alive after the great tribulation and "will by no means pass away until all these things occur," so these anointed ones will live to see the end of this wicked system of things.
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boyzone
bttt
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boyzone
djeggnog
This final paragraph in your explanation caught my attention
As I wrote elsewhere, there is no "1914 generation" and no "Armageddon generation"; there is but one "anointed generation" -- "this generation" of folks that lived contemporaneous to when the composite "sign" that Jesus provides in Matthew 24 and 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 appeared in 1914, and many of the people in this generation will still be alive after the great tribulation and "will by no means pass away until all these things occur," so these anointed ones will live to see the end of this wicked system of things.
How can there be no "1914 generation" if you are explaining the generation as being "this generation" of folks that lived contemporaneous to when the composite sign...appeared in 1914"??
This "overlapping" of anointed ones can last and last enabling the Society to maintain its urgency to keep on the watch without actually naming a specific timeframe or date, a mistake they've made several times in the past.
In this I see a correlation with the the teaching of many churches that, although they do not offer such a specific explanation of the generation, they have urged their parishioners to "keep on the watch" without naming a specific timeframe for Jesus return in accordance with the admonition "nobody knows the day or hour". Considering that is exactly what Jesus has urged in the bible for centuries it seems to me that the Church has been correct in this all along and God's self proclaimed Spirit-directed Organization is finally catching up.
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garyneal
He finally responded. I just got back from a weekend with family and have only read his reply so I do not have a response for him yet.
I will mull over it and respond to him with my comments. In the meantime, enjoy...
Hi Gary
I am sorry for taking so long. For the last four weeks I have had so much to do. XXXXXXXXXX Kingdom Hall new build. WS Convention. NC accounting conference, Washington DC accountant technology conference, my 39 th wedding anniversary. The weekends were taken up.
Anyway, back to our discussion about generations. I hope you have read the entire article in that Sunday Watchtower lesson I wrote about.
It is not so much a matter of confusion, as it is simply changing. And the reasons for changing an explanation about generations can be understood when you realize the purpose of our concern about generations, and the time periods they indicate. Certainly the generations issue is not the central article of our Christian faith. Rather, our primary doctrine concerns love of God, Jesus and neighbor, as well as understanding God’s purpose in creating humans to live according to his will. Romans 8:19-21 tells us that God subjected his human creation to futility. After Adam and Eve sinned, they received the sentence of eventual death for them and their offspring. An imperfect condition persisted, with a tendency toward sin and its consequent, death. However God also provided hope, starting in Genesis 3:15, that the cooperative ones among His creation would be rescued or redeemed from futility by means of belief and action upon the ransom of Jesus, and be restored to complete unity with God. This process would involve faith on the part of the creation in the action taken by God and his agents to rid the earth and the heavens of all who would oppose his righteous purpose by means of a Judgment Day.
Well, it has taken a long time hasn’t it? Over the passage of time this purpose has been announced, published and preached for a witness, after which the end of God’s toleration of wickedness would occur, by means of a Judgment Day, which destroys the wicked, but preserves the righteous. Matthew 24:14. During all of this time faithful ones must maintain hope and faith, and long to see that day. If they knew for sure the timing of that day, and especially that it would be in the far distant future, they might likely just forget about it, and occupy their lives with purely selfish interests, figuring that staying attentive to God’s purpose would be a waste of their time.
Instead, they watch expectantly for that time to come. They maintain the vigil, and that maintains their faith, which motivates to far more noble and beneficial lives. For this purpose Jesus said to “keep on the watch.” At 2 Peter 3:12 the apostle Peter wrote that Christians should be, “awaiting and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah.” Doing so would motivate Christians to correctly answer the question Peter posed in verse 11 of the same chapter, ”What sort of persons ought you to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of Godly devotion?”
Once Jesus told his disciples, “no one knows that day and the hour, not even the Son, but only the Father.” And yet when they asked him in Matthew 24:1-3 “When will these things be? What will be the sign…..” he did not fail to answer their question. He gave a lengthy summation of the world conditions which would obtain when that time arrived. He did not say, ‘forget about it, you cannot figure it out, don’t even concern yourselves with it.’ Instead he said “Keep on the watch..” for this sign to be fulfilled.
With this context and setting in mind, consider the following about our topic “generations.”
This Generation:
The new understanding for the “generation” spoken of in Matthew 24:34 refers to Exodus 1:6 which says, “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.”
How does this fit in?
Well, Joseph, the Hebrew, was Prime Minister of Egypt and had brothers that were born before him and died before him. He also had a brother that was born after him and died after him. So the generation extended from the first brother born to the last brother who died. Their lives actually would overlap each other. In addition “all that generation” would include children of Joseph (born in Egypt) and the children of his brothers. All of this Hebrew crowd was known to the governmental administration of Egypt at that time, but as the overlapping lifespans of this Hebrew generation finally passed away, Joseph’s good works for the nation faded from the collective consciousness of Egypt, and the Hebrews came to be viewed as good candidates for slavery. This provides an example of overlapping lifespans all within one generation. And this is the basis for the viewpoint expressed in the recent Watchtower article.
So that being the case, there would be anointed ones that saw the very start of Christ’s Presence (1914) but would die before the Great Tribulation. There are others that would not see the start of 1914 but see the Great Tribulation. So the generation would extend from the anointed at 1914 to the anointed during the Great Tribulation. But this doesn’t mean an indefinite amount of time because, for it to be truly a generation as described in Exodus 1:6, their lives must overlap. Yet a generation is still a relatively short period of time.
Consider this illustration. Imagine an oval perhaps blue with a big letter A and then another oval yellow with a big letter B. These two ovals must overlap forming another area that is green and designated AB. Since the anointed that saw 1914 have died, the time period we are living at would be past the A and the AB sections. This gives us a greater sense of urgency since we know the Great Tribulation is near.
This understanding may change again, however in the grand scheme of things this does not make or break our trust and confidence in Jehovah or his organization. Why?
Why does Understanding Change?
You may think, how can an organization that claims to be backed by God make mistakes? Or change understanding concerning prophecies whether great or small?
There are bible examples that explain this as well. First, Proverbs 4:18 tells us that the path would get “lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established”. This shows that understanding by the righteous would come gradually. This fits in with Jesus’ miracles of curing the blind. They didn’t get shocked by seeing bright sunlight but gradually they could discern shapes and light (Mark 8:22-25). Spiritually, Jesus did not tell his apostles everything about himself or the future because they would not fully comprehend or appreciate its meaning and significance (John 16:12). Jehovah deals with his organization today the same way. Matthew 24:45 says his slave would dispense “food at the proper time.” This also shows it would be gradual and be intended for that period of time.
So, just as would be true with an associate we may have… If they stick to their viewpoint even though they are proven again and again to be wrong, do you have respect for them? Even someone who is right and doesn’t listen to other concepts would seem to us to be close-minded. So it is true with Jehovah’s organization. Jehovah does not support organizations that stubbornly hold onto falsehoods or who change due to social trends. He does not support pride or selfishness but looks for meekness, or being teachable. So Jehovah’s people today would base its beliefs and teachings on the Bible and if something does not fit in with the Scriptures it must be discarded. This process may take time since history also sheds light on matters. But even during times when the understanding of a specific detail was misunderstood, Jehovah’s blessing and Holy Spirit was evident upon his organization. His support is still evident to this day. ***(Side point, there are even examples of when the Society had the wrong viewpoint of a matter but Jehovah blessed their faithfulness and it actually was great for the time period. In the late 1930’s we explained that the Superior Authorities of Romans 13 were Jehovah God and Jesus. This helped keep us neutral during WWII. Later, a closer consideration of Romans 13 informed our belief that the superior authorities to which we are in relative subjection are the civil administrations over us, the city, state and national governments.)
Please consider all of this and let me know your response.
It really is a pleasure to discuss this with you.
"Scholar" and "Alice In Wonderland" (a friend of mine who helped me write this)
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TD
In addition “all that generation” would include children of Joseph (born in Egypt) and the children of his brothers.
What?
None of the convention speakers (So far...) or The Watchtower have said that...
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wasblind
Why does Understanding Change?
"You may think, how can an organization that claims to be backed by God make mistakes? Or change understanding concerning prophecies whether great or small?"
Let me explain the difference between the light getting brighter (advancing light) and transforming light
when the light gets brighter nothing is taken away or changed. Only made clearer .you understand better, whatever God shows you first is solid.
transforming light is complete change that keeps on changing to suit the need.
EX: 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder,for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light
That's why their understanding changes, because it's not truth, truth never changes.
Truth never make a promise, and turn around a break it
EX: 1914 generation will not pass away, now they will
ha.