LOVE your ENEMIES: where Jesus goes wrong (page 3)

tec

Hi, Terry.

I know it seems like I wasn't engaging you on the other thread over this matter, but I just don't think this is as black and white as you do.

'Turn the other cheek' and 'love your enemy' were both exact opposite of taking vengeance, or eye for an eye, which I believe was a necessary teaching. At the same time, this teaching could be taken literally in every case, transforming someone into a pacifist... and that requires the utmost faith that God will take care of things in this life or the next.

But I think we have to use our brains, and temper our knowledge with the compassion and mercy that Jesus taught. I believe that Jesus expected us to use our brains, and to look at each different situation on its own merit. This means we're going to screw up, over and again. (But applying the exact same standards to every situation is flawed also)

If someone's conscience allows them to be the extreme pacifist, then I don't think they have sinned. If someone's conscience tells them that 'loving their enemy' shouldn't mean allowing their wife or daughter to be raped (since that isn't exactly showing love thy neighbor)- and they defend those innocents by whatever means necessary, then I don't think they have sinned either.

Each scenario requires faith that God knows our conscience. That faith in God will help us make the right decision. And that we can be forgiven when we make the wrong decision, because we are acting with love as best as we know how. (Love covers over a multitude of sins)

Tammy

agonus

"Excusable" and "forgivable" are not the same thing - nor are they mutually exclusive.

Terry, in your opinion, is there no such thing as a "victim" of the Watchtower?

I think most of us here would beg to differ.

cult classic

Why do humans always have to explain away what God/Jesus meant? They make a simple statement of a few words and then there are volumes of words by humans trying to understand how to apply it or how it works in our world. I think that if their ways/thoughts are superior to ours that a simple command would be easy to execute and would have results that make sense.

Terry

"Excusable" and "forgivable" are not the same thing - nor are they mutually exclusive

.

Excusing is to not hold accountable. Forgiving is to excuse, overlook, or make allowances for an injury. They do not differ substantially.

Granting an exemption for a liability is to render Justice impotent. Why would we do that?

Terry, in your opinion, is there no such thing as a "victim" of the Watchtower?

A Victim is what?

an unfortunate person who suffers from some adverse circumstance
a person who is tricked or swindled

This is a tricky one because many members who are Jehovah's Witnesses are not tricked; they are persuaded.

They are certainly swindled. To the extent a person is aware of the cognitive dissonance it takes to remain a JW after

perceiving the lies, misrepresentations and lack of genuine love--is the extent they must claim ownership of the adversity which results.

Terry

I believe that Jesus expected us to use our brains, and to look at each different situation on its own merit.

When is someone our enemy? Who is an enemy of God? When god destroys His enemies is it love and forgiveness?

There is a chain...a logical chain of cause and effect at work.

At the point somebody selects you out to injure, swindle, or badly mistreat they have violated your right and expectation of

freedom from molestation. A conscious being who is willing to injure an innocent victim is malevolent and without moral standards.

Excusing their actions is one thing, but, loving them is yet another.

Makes no sense to do so. None at all.

moshe

Jesus' miracles did not always work, so it would have behooved Jesus, to first tell everyone to love their enemies, just in case he had to leave town in a hurry by the back gate, after his magic flopped.

glenster

A few things on Jesus and "agape" I found on the Internet:
MLK Jr.
http://www.ipoet.com/archive/beyond/King-Jr/Loving-Your-Enemies.html
Lois Tverberg
http://www.egrc.net/articles/director/articles_director_0805.html
JPH
http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatlove.html

Worldliness and defense (brought up in analyzing JWs leaders' forced points):
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id19.html

cult classic

"Excusing their actions is one thing, but, loving them is yet another."

I agree here. I think it's easy to confuse pardoning the wrongdoer with loving them. To excuse or pardon their behavior is a completely different action than demonstrating love towards them.

"Excusing is to not hold accountable. Forgiving is to excuse, overlook, or make allowances for an injury. They do not differ substantially."

I agree again. The meanings are not so different as to matter. Debates about the bible are often reduced to semantics because supporters are trying to extract some sensibleness from words that are too often impractical and don't make sense.

cult classic

That's funny Moshe

not a captive

The arguments you have put forth for defense are what we often hear used to shame young men into the military. If someone were going to rape your sister or mother what would you do--just watch?

At a huge Baptist church near where I live there was a pastor that reigned for 30 years, a retired Air Force General/chaplain. His was a special brand of Christianity.

Jesus was no physical coward, when the soldiers arrived to arrest him he asked that his friends be let go. Jesus didn't fight for them.

I have never seen a whole Christian sign in for combat and I never see even half a Christian come out. That goes for chaplains too.

I would never simply watch my daughter get raped. But neither do I keep a sawed-off shot gun.

No blueprint but no license to kill either.

The Just War teachings that began its early development during the same time as the council at Nicea was hammering out the Trinity teaching destroyed the central axis of Jesus teaching: You no longer needed faith because you were supplied a catechism. You were not allowed to hate your enemies but now you could kill them.

As for loving your enemies, Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mohandas Gandhi, learned that it was often the case that we let long, critcal moments pass watching "our enemy" suffer need or the want of a kindness until the tipping point arrives and they explode--and then we feel justified to attack him. This is not to say that kindness is merely enlightened self interest but it is in keeping with Jesus' spirit of recognizing another's value, viewing them as your neighbor, rather than as a nobody.

I think this is somehow part of your other post, Terry: Why believe in the Supernatural?

LOVE your ENEMIES: where Jesus goes wrong

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