For non theists: Stages of evolution, can we develop wings? (page 4)

glenster

OK, seriously: Mankind evolved from mammals small enough to qualify as
eligible, and we've had things like flying squirrels which developed skin from
arm to leg so they could glide. Humans have created wing suits which show
humans could do something similar. As small as they are, birds developed hollow
bones to be lighter and move faster and fly. Humans got too big and slow to
fly like birds. And reptiles had scales which could develop bristles then
feathers. What would humans do--get hairier? It's possible humans could have
evolved to be able to fly, but I doubt it would work. You'd just have a slow
hairy little guy fall and get hurt.

villabolo

TD:

Intelligence easily trumps flight as a survival advantage. And the idea of humans sacrificing the hand as the instrument of that intelligence in exchange for the ability to fly doesn't even make for good science fiction.

Why not keep the best of both worlds? there's no need to sacrifice hands, at the end of an arm/wing appendage, in order to fly efficiently. As I mentioned in my previous post we would first have to get smaller. Then we would go through the evolution that archaeopteryx went through. First evolving feathers as extra insulation (this "protobird was too cumbersome to fly) it maintained claws at the end of it's feathered arms. Then true flying birds evolved maintaing those claws for a time.

We could maintain our hands as well, and keep them indefinitely. Of course the whole arm would be readapted.

villabolo

A very pissed off Leolaia:

I can't believe people actually buy this crap that Italian, French, and Spanish "evolved" from Latin.

Calm down down young lady and please don't leave me in suspense. Where did those three languages evolve from?

villabolo

Leolaia

Well, apparently, the facts are that each language was created individually just as it is today, what a ridiculous idea it is that a language like (Vulgar) Latin could develop into a whole bunch of other languages in different places.

villabolo

Glenster, obviously perplexed, says:

What would humans do--get hairier? It's possible humans could have
evolved to be able to fly, but I doubt it would work. You'd just have a slow
hairy little guy fall and get hurt.

The little humans would follow the same path as scientists have sketched out for the evolution of the birds. It's more roundabout than the public imagines. First, once they're bird sized they would get hairier. Then the hairs would specialize into feathers. Then the feathers that dangle from the arms would grow longer, dangling from the arms. This would offer no advantage to the arms but when the creature wraps its arms around its body, in the cool of night let's say, it would have an extra set of insulation for it's front.

This is about the only thing that archaeopteryx could do with its loosely dangling arm feathers since they weren't suited for flight. The rest of his body wasn't suited for flight in spite of being small but that's another story. Later on those feathers would be readapted (reworked by natural selection) into something that allowed the creature to glide and eventually, through redesigned skeleton and muscles, be able to fly. Of course, these creatures would not jump off a tree unless they knew instinctively that they would not be hurt or were desperately trying to escape a predator (A possible driving force in wing evolution)

Now apply that to man.

villabolo

Leolaia, who likes pulling peoples legs:

Well, apparently, the facts are that each language was created individually just as it is today, what a ridiculous idea it is that a language like (Vulgar) Latin could develop into a whole bunch of other languages in different places.

Sorry, didn't get the joke. Just thought you had some offbeat theory.

Silly villa

Leolaia

This is about the only thing that archaeopteryx could do with its loosely dangling arm feathers since they weren't suited for flight. The rest of his body wasn't suited for flight in spite of being small.

Really? What about the wishbone (strengthens the thorax for flight, found only in birds), the thin hollow bones (common to many other small dinosaurs), long stiff vaned flight feathers (for greater stability in flight), larger brain (particularly in areas devoted to vision, important for flight), and the opposable hallux (for perching)? Those are important for flying. Archaeopteryx lacked many other avian features which would develop later (such as those necessary for flapping flight and upstroke). It probably did not glide or fly very far, maybe only from tree to tree, and yes, many of its features were later selected for other functions that they probably had at the time.

VoidEater

Thanks, Leo -

My life, and this thread, are now complete!

villabolo

Leolaia:

Archaeopteryx was a prelude to real birds. I mentioned that it was incapable of true flight and would have to redesign it's skeleton for the reasons you stated and others (having a bony tail which is like a small airplane having a chain and boat anchor attached to its rear). The reason I mentioned archaeopteryx is because I wanted to emphasize how roundabout bird evolution, hence any parallels in human/flight evolution would have to be.

So please explain, why did you start off by saying "Really?" when we are in agreement in those points? I never stated that other features than feathers were not important in keeping it from flying, I simply didn't elaborate on those points for the sake of brevity.

villabolo

Edited to correct last sentence.

Leolaia

I guess the distinction is between "flight" and "true flight" as you mean it. The vaned (pennaceous) feathers of Archaeopteryx, for instance, were "suited for flight" although vaned feathers did not arise for that function (as earlier feathered dinosaurs had them). But they had the properties of flight feathers, e.g. asymmetricality, raches, barbs, barbules, etc., as is the case with modern bird feathers. So I didn't understand why you said that the arm feathers were "not suited for flight".

For non theists: Stages of evolution, can we develop wings?

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