by paul from cleveland 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I never think about my lack of belief until one of these discussions comes up.
Perfect! That's a healthy attitude, why should you define yourself by the things you don't feel strongly about? If your 'lack of belief' is no big issue for you then you are most certainly atheist. Perhaps not a vocal or militant one (why bother), but an atheist all the same.
If your 'lack of belief' is no big issue for you then you are most certainly atheist.
That's how I look at it too. I think Paul might be close to where I was when I first left the dubs, that middle ground I mentioned. I remember having a discussion with a friend about the existence of god. At that time, I was arguing the pro side, but not feeling very secure there. Finally his arguments against were becoming so compelling, that it scared me. I told him I had to stop, because I had far more to lose if I was right and he convinced me, than if he was right and I convinced him. hehe.
How can people debate whether or not they believe in "God" without even knowing what each person's opinion is of the definition of that word?
Possible definitions of God:
- Jehovah God in the JW religion
- an immortal and all-powerful being of unknown form
- some generalization of God across most Judeo-Christian religions
- an ambiguous "higher power" relative to human beings
- all of nature; i.e. the universe and everything in it
- a rambunctious 4 year old kid playing with his toy universe (which contains our universe), in some much larger uber-universe
- many etcs
If one's not going to believe in something, it's probably a good idea to know what he's not believing in first.
Leec:
@ leec - on an ex-JW website it is reasonable to make an assumption about which god we are talking about :-)
Let me explain why the "santa claus" argument is nonsensical to me. Let's just apply it to a non-emotionally charged issue. Something we all believe in, even without proof. That is the love others have for us. The true motives of others can never be proven yet we all believe that someone in this god-forsaken world loves us, don't we? For example, I believe my parents love me but I can't prove it. I would even go so far as to say I know my parents love me. Would it be reasonable to say "I don't believe anyone loves me because I can't prove that love exists"? If I said "my wife loves me" would you say "no she doesn't because you can't prove that love exists therefore she doesn't... in fact, Paul, if you believe anyone loves you you may as well believe in the easter bunny!"? Of course not. So the "santa claus" argument doesn't convince me that my beliefs are false, rather, they indicate the biases of the person saying them. For example, if my friend had a bad relationship with his wife, I can sympathize with why he might not believe that my wife has love for me... but I won't believe him based on that. So, the way I see it, we all believe in the existence of something for which there is no proof. By one definition "God is Love" so, in one sense, we all already believe in God. If Love exists, and God is love, then God exists. That's all the proof I need.
Besty said, "on an ex-JW website it is reasonable to make an assumption about which god we are talking about"
I disagree. We can make an assumption about which god we've stopped worshipping - the Brooklyn sock-puppet, Jehovah.
But that doesn't tell us anything about where they are coming from NOW.
Some have declared Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Master, some have accepted the trinitarian god of the Roman Catholic Church. Some are buddhists, some are wiccans, some may be Pastafarians, some may be Sub-Genii; on THIS board the word "god" can have many meanings.
For you to assume they all mean Odin would be illogical.
Paul do a little reading about the wonderful variety of biological parasites that surrond us and then get back to me on that "love" thing.
If you have access to a DVD library, there was a great series on TV called "The Monsters Inside Me." Worth a viewing, but keep a barf bag handy.
for me it comes down to the weight of evidence for an astonishing claim, the probabilities of such a claim being true given the available evidence and where the burden of proof lies
I agree with Besty here. If your wife and parents are claiming they love you, and they are giving evidence of it in the way the behave, it's a good bet they love you. That love is evident.
get back to me on that "love" thing.
I don't think there is anything that could convince me that my parents don't love me.
If your wife and parents are claiming they love you, and they are giving evidence of it in the way the behave, it's a good bet they love you.
They way that people behave is not proof. For example, my wife could just be a "gold digger" acting like she loves me. To follow the "santa claus" line of reasoning, nobody loves me... since there's no proof that love exists. (by the way, I don't have a wife... just using that as an example)
