Confused by answers given by friend

by ArchDemon 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ArchDemon

    Hello,im not sure this is the right place to post,anyway ive never been a jw but i have a very good friend that is,lately her mother has been telling me to go to the meetings and i went only once because after that ive been to research alot about them and i didnt like what i saw at all.

    Anyway the thing is that i asked my friend is the following

    "can you disfellowship jw with no problem?"she said "yes,you just need to inform them".

    I already knew the answer should be no cause they are shunned and this couldnt possibly be,

    Also asked

    "Are there any changes in doctrines?" and she also said "no",wich i knew it was false because they go back and forth.

    ALSO i showed her about cognitive dissonance and a particular case about a prophecy that aliens would come to earth to save humans from the apocalypse wich failed and ppl thought they were even more right and become more fanatical when nothing happened,and she agreed with me that they were kinda crazy in beliving it,so my question is what they rly teach ppl in there?because im pretty sure she wouldnt lie,also should i tell her about my research?im not sure cause maybe she could get offended or something and wouldnt want to talk to me...anyway thanks for reading

  • Heaven

    Welcome to JWN, ArchDemon and thank you for posting your questions. The governing organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is called 'The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society' or WTS for short. They use high, mind-control tactics to control and indoctrinate their members. This is why it has been identified as a cult.

    Their foundational belief is that Jesus Christ, upon God's command, returned invisibly to the Earth in 1914 and, then, in 1919, selected the WTS and JWs (formerly called 'Bible Students') as his Earthly Organization. They believe that the holy war known as Armageddon will be arrivng shortly. After Armageddon, Satan will be thrown into an abyss for 1,000 years. During this time, life on Earth will be wonderful (after they've cleaned up the mess). All those who died before Armageddon will be resurrected, espeically if they were a JW (and maybe a few select others but they aren't too clear on this). However, after the 1,000 years, Satan will be released to remain a short time once again among humans and this will test us, yet again, where some will follow Satan. Then, at some time only know to God, he will destroy Satan once and for all and those who choose to follow him. Only144,000 people called the 'annointed' go to heaven while the remainder of everyone who has passed the judgment remain on paradise Earth forever.

    So JWs believe they are the one true religion on Earth because they were hand picked by Christ at God's direction. Also because they restored God's so-called name 'Jehovah' to the Bible. They believe they are God's Chosen Organization. They believe that if you aren't a JW, you won't gain everlasting life.

    Regarding your JW friend and showing her your research, my answer to you is 'it depends'. If she has been a JW since birth, trying to show her the falacy of the religion will probably result in her shunning you. You need to take it slowly and carefully because they are trained to stop listening to anything that negates their teachings.

    Perhaps read Steve Hassan's books "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing the Bonds" before attempting to help her see the real truth. He has some very good advice on how to handle these situations. I wish you good luck in your endeavours. I am also so glad you see the issues with this religion.

  • alanv

    Hi ArchDemon welcome to the forum. I am presuming your friend is a witness as well as the mother.

    JWs will disfellowship any baptised person who disagree with their faith and who show know repentance after being spoken to.

    As far as doctrines go they are constantly changing them. As soon as something they say is proved wrong the leaders change it and all witnesses must conform to the new understanding or be disfellowshipped.

    It is good you did some research about them. Many people are able to do that now especially with the power of the internet showing what they are really like.

    If you want to keep her as a friend you will have to keep most of your thoughts to yourself, because witnesses do not like any critisism of their organisation.

    Good luck

  • cantleave

    Welcome to the forum. Use the search function above and look at historic posts. There is an enormous wealth of archived info on this site.

  • ArchDemon

    thans ppl,well our ideas kinda clashed already and i didnt even started with the facts...even if i tried to be the less rude possible she is saying that she researched about the religion(7 years ago) and its where she wants be and she doesnt like ppl trying to modify her thoughts,but she said she would listen to the rest of what i have to say later today anyway,but i fell like this is gonna be pointless

  • Heaven

    she doesnt like ppl trying to modify her thoughts

    Hmmmm... strange comment since this is exactly what the WTS does to its members. It is sad that she doesn't see this.

    Yes, it may be pointless but I always think that any sort of chance you have to plant a seed in someone's psyche about the falacy, then take that chance. It may germinate... maybe not today or tomorrow... but years later, even, it may just align with something that triggers an exit.

    One question I always like to ask my father is "What is the definition of 'soon'? You say Armageddon is coming 'soon', yet, in over 135 years of JWs saying this, it has never arrived. Please explain the definition."

  • diamondiiz

    Hello ArchDemon:

    Just curious how old is your friend? You sound young that's why I ask. Second, her definition of researching her religion is not the true meaning of the word. Most likely she studied with jws or her perants and came to the conclusion that it's true religion as what else would jw tell others. About disfellowshipping she's wither lying but or is more likely ignoring the reality as that's one thing that jws do alot. Try sticking with one topic when you discuss things with her and don't change it until there is nothing more to say on the subject. If you talk about disfellowshipping as in

    "can you disfellowship jw with no problem?"she said "yes,you just need to inform them"

    You don't inform the religion of wanting to be disfellowshipped, they do that to you basically if you want to leave you write a disassociation letter and they announce that you no longer are a jw at one of their meetings and the members automatically think of you as someone not to talk to. You should ask her who gets disfellowshipped and why? Most likely she'll tell you people who do bad things will get disfellowshipped - mostly of morality reasons. Ask her what if you disagreed with one of the teachings after you got baptized what would happen? Could you present your view in a congregation openly? She may say yes, but that will be either a lie of out of ignorance on her part to which case you can use Ray Franz (ex-governing body member) as an example. Also, what does she mean by there is no problem when disfellowshipped? Some people continue talking to disfellowshipped individuals but that is rare.

    "Are there any changes in doctrines?" and she also said "no",

    This statement on her part makes me think that she's either lying or more likey that she's young and when her family studied with witnesses 7 years ago they were not presented the past which is typical. As her what she knows about the "first president" Charles Russell. Ask her what did Russell teach about 1914? Did he teach that Jesus' second presents was to start in 1914? Did Russell teach that Jesus took power in heaven in 1914? And did Russell teach that last days started in 1914? Sincec she's most likely ignorant of the truth she will answer "yes" to all these question to which you should point her to find Thy Kingdom Come book written by Russell and read it. The link is to the 1911 pdf copy of the book which you can give her but don't give he the link at this time or she'll think it's an apostate site which is something jws view on the same level as satan. From there you can point her that Russell or watch tower originally taught that:

    Last days began in 1799 (based on George Bell's theory and after the pope was take captive in 1798 by the French which was viewed as the fall of anti-Christ)

    Jesus returned for the second time in 1874 and this teaching was taught until 1930s and officially changed in 1943 in the salvation book (I think that's correct if I remember right)

    Christ began to rule as king in 1878 which was changed to 1914 in the early 1920s

    And on this topic the only thing that watch tower originally taught was that 1914 was end of gentile times which they based on 606BC fall of Jerusalem, a date which was wrong and is proven wrong by history and archeaology today (secular history points to 586/587BC), and a date changed to 607 in the 1940s as they realized that Russell didn't even add years correctly. Also to come up with 1914 Russell added 40 years from 1874 which related from the baptism of Christ in 30AD to 70AD the second destruction of Jerusalem. Also Russell used calculations of passage ways in the Pyramid Of Giza to which he taught was build by God's direction.

    These different ways of obtaining these dates made Russell believe that he was right about the dates because these varied ways of calculation all pointed to the dates stated above. Stick with the topic and don't allow her to change topic, if she wants to change topic tell her that you can discuss that topic some other day.

    Sorry for a lengthly post and you did a right thing for coming her to get more informed on the watch tower religion.

  • HappyGuy
    They use high, mind-control tactics to control and indoctrinate their members.

    They also use intimidation, extortion, and guilt to control the behavior of their members. "Do this or we will shun you and force all your friends and relatives to shun you". "Don't do this and we will send someone to give a special talk about how one's who don't do this shoudl be marked, we won't say who we are talking about but the gossip mill will make sure everyone knows it is you, oh and marking basically means shunning".

  • ArchDemon

    thanks for the help,she is actually 14 im 18,her parents are seperated,i thin it was actually her taht dragger her mother,her mother if i recall was in depression at the time,also i was talking to her in msn about the failed prophecies right now,and she just said they corrected theyre mistakes for sure and made an excuse to leave...this isnt over yet , i didnt even started talking about the 2 questions...

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Stick to one subject until you want drop it.

    She will try to distract you by blatantly changing the subject or pretending to answer it, but is really shuffling the question sideways to a closely related topic that she likes better.

    If she says anything about her beliefs that you think is wrong, demand that she gives you references to Watchtower literature that proves her correct.

    It is better to ask questions than to try to tell her something as they are trained to answer questions but.....

    ..... they are trained not to listen. Try to format anything you want to say as a serious question that she will want to answer.

    Welcome to the forum.

    Good luck


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