The Probabilty of there being an Intelligent Designer
I've heard Behe speak. His case, even shortened to about an hour, is compelling.
The problems with macroevolution are many, as are the problems with religious philosophies.
But as was brought out, the discussion is philosophical, not scientific. Why? Because even if you proved every single step of evolution of every single life form on earth, the question of whether evolution was brought about by design remains.
There is no answer; nobody's going to win this argument. Time to get over ourselves and let people put faith in whatever works for them.
Mad Sweeney: Is the question if america was made of cheese prior to year 1200AC scientific?
bohm: Perhaps, but now you're talking about building materials, not the builder (or lack thereof). The question, "if America was made of cheese prior to year 1200AC, was the cheese made by an intelligent source?" is philosophical.
Mad Sweeney: Okay i allready hate the cheese example, but stay with me a bit! :-). So you are saying that:
"Was america made of cheese prior to 1200AC" <-- science, archeology, geology, history (ie. the sagas about the vikings), etc. can all answer this important question.
"IF america was made of cheese prior to 1200AC, was the cheese made by an intelligent source?" <--- philosophical.
Here is what im thinking:
"Did life as we know it get to how it is today by evolution?" (reptiles to birds, etc.) <--- science.
"IF life as we know it got to how it is today by evolution, was that process guided by an intelligent source" <-- mainly philosophical.
I can agree with that a long way .
If you want to start a topic about behe, that would be cool. I researched him a while ago, and i think what he had to say was interesting and warrented investigation, but as far as i know his claims in 'darwins black box' has all been shown to be false.
Some interesting posts here.
For me, I understand that evolution makes some sense, small changes, lots of time and the progress is made from simple to complex.
However, intelligent design makes far more sense to me when you actually look at the actual universe, the creativity, the ingenuity, the multi faceted beauty and complexity and inter workings.
I come back to the analogy of watching a TV that is not tuned in. Watch for a long time and you will just see grey noise. You can watch all day and night and see just more of the same, pure randomness. Watch a lifetime or an eternity even and no change, more grey noise. It makes sense to me that randomness leads to more randomness, not order. You will never see a picture of a tree, or a dog or the sun setting over Ipanema beach.
Jeff: It keeps coming back to the 'Who created the creator?'
Indeed, you know my answer to that already but I still understand the feeling behind the question.
Atheists are posed similar questions which they similarly claim are inherently nonsensical.
What happened before time began? Where does space exist?
Personally, as I have got to know the Creator I see His character all over creation, His fingerprint, His imprint. Any artist can be identified by their work once you get to know the artist or the work of the artist. Jesus is THE Creator, Artist, the Scientist, the Inventor, the Musician, the Poet, the Comedian, the Chef, the Loving friend etc.
Even if one does give the possibility of an ID, it takes a great leap of logic to think such an intelligent, organized and marvelous being could do such a lousy job of communicating to those made "in his image." He, she or it could have done much better than the documents that make up what we call the Bible.
Check this out
1 Corinthians 1:17-25 (Contemporary English Version)
17 Christ did not send me to baptize. He sent me to tell the good news without using big words that would make the cross of Christ lose its power.
Christ Is God's Power and Wisdom18 The message about the cross doesn't make any sense to lost people. But for those of us who are being saved, it is God's power at work. 19 As God says in the Scriptures,
"I will destroy the wisdom
of all who claim
to be wise.
I will confuse those
who think they know
20 What happened to those wise people? What happened to those experts in the Scriptures? What happened to the ones who think they have all the answers? Didn't God show that the wisdom of this world is foolish? 21 God was wise and decided not to let the people of this world use their wisdom to learn about him.
Instead, God chose to save only those who believe the foolish message we preach. 22 Jews ask for miracles, and Greeks want something that sounds wise. 23 But we preach that Christ was nailed to a cross. Most Jews have problems with this, and most Gentiles think it is foolish. 24 Our message is God's power and wisdom for the Jews and the Greeks that he has chosen. 25 Even when God is foolish, he is wiser than everyone else, and even when God is weak, he is stronger than everyone else.Blessings, Stephen
To leave the door open for the yet unknown and the yet to be discovered is upholding individual intellectual honesty.
Something the spiritualists can not claim to uphold or profess.
What puzzles me is : does the rejection of an abusive organisation have to entail the rejection of a creator in whom we, having been deceived by the WTS but not being totally stupid, had believed wholeheartedly ?
What ever one wants to believe is the rule, but....
Everything you wear, every car you drive, every house you live in had a designer. I am not denying evolution. Dogs are considered the biggest evolutionary freaks ever.
From Chiuauas to Great Danes, they come from the same genes. No other animal in our time has had as much diversity.
My point being....Something, somewhere, started something and designed who we are and the mathematics of our entire solar system.
I would like to see the true mathematical odds...of our entire existence happening per chance, on a planet, in the middle of the milky way, much less the entire solar system as we know it at this point.