Question regarding Holy Spirit...

by tenyearsafter 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    I am still muddling my way through both sides of the trinity argument, but I would be very interested in hearing the explanation for the nontrinitarian view of the Holy Spirit and what it is in light of Ephesians 4:29-32 where it speaks about "grieving the Holy Spirit". If the Holy spirit is just God's active force, as we were taught as JW's, how can we grieve it? Grieving would indicate a personality or feelings that could be "grieved". Also, John 14:26 specifically refers to Holy Spirit as "He". As I read that it would also indicate something more than an "active force".

    How would you answer this? Thanks in advance for your comments!

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    All I have is a pro-Trinitarian response.

    http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#38

  • wobble
    wobble

    I do not think from scripture you could give a response that supports the WT/JW view.

    It is obvious from the scriptures that you quote,and others like where Jesus says the H.S will be a helper, and then says and "that one" i,e that person, that the H.S is considered by Him to be just as much a person as God the Father .

    Why try to fight the plain words of scripture ? there are enough obscure words of scripture to worry about ,without trying to twist what is obviously being said.

    Having said that,the full blown doctrine of the Trinity,as decided upon in the 4th century, is not to be found in scripture in an easy to reference form,but that is not to say the church fathers who wrestled with it are in error.

    Love

    Wobble

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Here's the JW position:

    Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper,” and he said it would teach, guide, and speak. (John 14:16, 26; 16:13) The Greek word he used for helper (pa-ra’kle-tos) is in the masculine gender. So when Jesus referred to what the helper would do, he used masculine personal pronouns. (John 16:7, 8) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneumatic) is used, the neuter pronoun “it” is properly employed.

    Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’

    So, when the Bible uses masculine personal pronouns in connection with pa-ra-kle-tos at John 16:7, 8, it is conforming to rules of grammar, not expressing a doctrine. (Should You Believe, Chapter 8)

    Which is wrong as per: http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-8.html#38

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Thanks JD and Wobble...I am sure that I am not alone with being "stuck" in my old JW thinking about the subject of the Trinity. I still have some issues with the actual Trinity doctrine, but I am starting to lean towards something more akin to the Trinity. It just is too difficult to "buy" the JW argument as to Jesus being an archangel and the Holy Spirit being an inanimate object that is more like electricity than anything else.

    I know that the Trinity apologists see no other answer than the Trinity as defined by the early church fathers. I also know that many who are now atheist or agnostic would feel my question to be nonsense in the first place.

    I would still like to hear from the nontrinitarians such as Joseph Malik, to get the opposing explanation to the personage or identity of the Holy Spirit. I know that the gender of the personal pronoun in John 14:26 can be argued that is mistranslated and should be neutral (it). I would like to hear how we can "grieve" something that is without personality or nothing more than an active force sent by God. Thanks all...

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Great Question Tenyearslater. I'm afraid I am gravitating towards the Atheistic / Agnostic stance, but retain an interest because my wife doesn't want to give up her belief in a divine creator. IMO if we were created in his image, we should be able to understand his character without any theological debate. If it was that important to him that we should know he would have made it crystal clear.

  • glenster
    glenster

    What I have on the basic mainstream and JWs leaders' stances on the Holy
    Spirit is about halfway down p.8, after one of the pictures of Fred Franz, at
    the next link.
    http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklyn8.htm

    Index
    http://glenster1.webs.com/gtjbrooklynindex.htm

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Cantleave - I tend to agree with you that God shouldn't or wouldn't make his character so difficult an issue to understand if it was crucial to our "knowing" him. I still believe in a creator and have probably struggled more with this question than most. I can see both sides of the coin, but am leaning towards the Trinitarian viewpoint until I can see a reason to buy the nontrinitarian view.

    Glenstar - Thanks for the references. You have a some great information on your website! It will take me a while to read and digest what you have there, but I appreciate the work put into the compilation of the references.

    I still haven't heard from the defenders of the nontrinitarian view. I am not looking to start an heated debate on the subject, but rather to hear an explanation of how to explain the scriptures originally mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

    Thanks again!

    TYA

  • yknot
    yknot

    Here is another explanation by the WTS prior to the Trinity Brochure that Jonathan references above.....

    *** w04 5/15 pp. 29-30 Questions From Readers ***

    Questions From Readers

    • How can we grieve God’s holy spirit, since it is not a person?

    It was the apostle Paul who wrote: “Do not be grieving God’s holy spirit.” (Ephesians 4:30) Some take these words to be an indication that the holy spirit is a person. However, publications of “the faithful steward” have often provided Scriptural and historical proof that the early Christians viewed the holy spirit neither as a person nor as a god equal to the Most High as part of a so-called Trinity. (Luke 12:42) So Paul was not referring to God’s holy spirit as a person.

    God’s holy spirit is his invisible active force. (Genesis 1:2) Jesus was to baptize “with holy spirit,” just as John was baptizing with water. (Luke 3:16) At Pentecost 33 C.E., some 120 disciples were “filled with holy spirit”—obviously not with a person. (Acts 1:5, 8; 2:4, 33) Such anointed ones received a heavenly hope, and God’s spirit led them in a life of faithfulness. (Romans 8:14-17; 2 Corinthians 1:22) The spirit produced godly fruitage and helped them to avoid the sinful “works of the flesh” that could result in divine disapproval.—Galatians 5:19-25.

    If we are God’s servants with an earthly hope, we have not been anointed with holy spirit. Nevertheless, we can have just as much of God’s spirit as those with the heavenly hope. Hence, we too could grieve the spirit. But how?

    If we were to ignore Scriptural counsel penned under the guidance of holy spirit, we could develop traits that could result in willful sin against the spirit, the loss of Jehovah’s favor, and eventual destruction. (Matthew 12:31, 32) We might not yet be sinning gravely, but we could be starting off on the wrong road, one that could eventually take us in a direction contrary to the leading of the spirit. Under such circumstances, we would be grieving the holy spirit.

    How, then, can we avoid grieving God’s spirit? We certainly have to control our thoughts and actions. In his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 4, the apostle Paul spoke about avoiding tendencies toward dishonest statements, sustained wrathfulness, laziness, and unsuitable speech. If we have put on “the new personality” and yet allow ourselves to drift back toward such things, what would we be doing? We would be going against the spirit-inspired counsel of God’s Word, the Bible. By doing this, we would be grieving the holy spirit.

    In Ephesians chapter 5, we read Paul’s counsel about avoiding prurient interest in fornication. The apostle also urges fellow believers to avoid shameful conduct and obscene jesting. If we do not want to grieve God’s holy spirit, we ought to bear this in mind when choosing entertainment. Why would we show interest in such things by talking about them, reading about them, and viewing their portrayal on television or elsewhere?

    Of course, we could grieve the spirit in other ways. Jehovah’s spirit promotes unity in the congregation, but suppose we were to spread harmful gossip or encourage cliques in the congregation. Would we not be working against the spirit’s leadings toward unity? In a general way, we would be grieving the holy spirit, like those who caused divisions in the congregation in Corinth. (1 Corinthians 1:10; 3:1-4, 16, 17) We would also be grieving the spirit if we deliberately undermined respect for spirit-appointed men in

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    Yknot - Thanks you...that is a great reference! It is interesting that they never really answer the question of personage other than to say it isn't a part of the Godhead. I never really saw the "double speak" in the JW explanations when I was a JW. It sounds like another case of "it is so because I say it is", rather than an answer to the actual question.

    Does anyone else have a supporting explanation of why Holy Spirit is not a "person"?

    TYA

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