Ray Franz Views of "Information Control" by WT Society Agree with Hassan

by flipper 49 Replies latest jw friends

boyzone

Hi HappyGuy
We haven't spoken before so its good to see a fresh opinion on here.
Franz was a member of the body which orchestrates the brain washing. I am skeptical that what he says now is the truth because he willingly told lies for so long.
I think its helpful to remember that Ray Franz didn't willingly tell lies. As a GB member he still believed that he was part of God's Organization and made decisions believing he was working for Jehovah (didn't we all?) and the flaws he saw within it would be corrected in time.
The fact that he realised those flaws were just too deep and too fundamental to be fixed finally brought him in conflict with the Organization.
Yes I understand your hesitation with Franz, after all he was part of the problem for 9 years. But please think about this, If Ray Franz had stayed a GB member despite witnessing the lack of concern for people, despite the unscriptural policies and doctrines and despite the checkered prophetic history, then I can fully understand your distrust of him.
But he didn't stay. He saw deep problems and was willing to come into conflict with the Org for the sake of love for biblical truth and for the brothers. Its this crisis of conscience and the fact that he was willing to sacrifice long-term friendships, position, prestige and livelihood to follow what he found to be right that brings the man much admiration.
No other GB member has been willing to makes such sacrifices before or since.
I do urge you to read Crisis of Conscience, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
PSacramento

Sometimes we need to get to the top of something to see clearly, other times we need to sink to its lowest depths, either way the crucial part is seeing clearly.
cyberjesus

HappyGuy says :
Why is so much stock put into what this Franz character says?
Have you read his books? You will not know why until you read. Based on your question doesnt seem that you have. commentarypress.com is only $9 bucks.
He knowingly took part in a criminal consipracy for many years which told lies, hid wrongdoing by influential members, etc.
Do you know this for a fact? or is your suposition? Where do you get that information? Thats a bold statement and you need to back it up. However on the other side, he states that when he saw what was going on. he brought it up to the GB they dismissed it or ignore it. They even plot to oust them. He was under the belief that JWs were Gods Channell, he was brainwashed like all of us in this board. WE ALL WERE PART of that society. So why do you even believe anything in here? We were all part of this criminal conspiracy. We even brought people in, we defended it. Why believe any of us? why even post in here? We all told lies... but we didnt know. We were all brainwashed even the GB is brainwashed. We are not brainwashed by a person or a group, not even the GB or FDS nor the WT. we are brainwashed by a concept. All of them are lost. And the few who find out about it take the red pill and exit. Like most of us here. JW dont see bad in their religion cuz they cant. They are blocked from thinking.
NOW Franz claims that he isn't "like them" etc etc etc.
Where does he claim that? back it up, etc etc etc. doesnt do here. it does in the WT here we want facts. you are entitled to you thoughts but be carefull presenting them as facts. He is not a JW he is not in the GB nor the FDS anymore that is a fact.
Personally, I think the man has an agenda now, which is to deflect his share of the guilt from himself.
This is your personal opinion and thats fine. Have you read his books? Watched his interviews? how can someone deflect his share of guilt? Guilt comes from within. you can not deflect something that comes from inside. You mean reduce his guilt? Whats the problem with that? Are you a JW? or an exJW? Dont you feel guilt of preaching lies to people? to bugging them on their house to bring a dangerous message? guilt of shunning people and treating them like criminals? I feel guilt. I wanna help now other people out. whats wrong with that?
How do you know that you can put faith in what this man says, since the Governing Body has knowingly told lie after lie after lie for decades, and Franz went along with it?
Once again. They are ALL brainwashed. they lie and the dont even know they do. They think thats Godly devotion. They are captives of a concept. We all went along with them. We all told lies to other people and we didnt knew that.
I don't trust him.
Why do you trust us? why do you trust this website? were you a JW? can you even trust yourself then?
Geez Weez!
flipper

HAPPY GUY- It seems like your views on things don't really go along with your name. You seem to be over-sensitive and carrying a chip on your shoulder waiting for someone to knock it off. Your insinuation that Baba Yaga was baiting you - or misrepresenting you on purpose is ridiculous.
Baba Yaga is a fine , caring , understanding female poster on the board here and she would NEVER say anything to upset you on purpose. I feel you OVER RESPONDED and didn't understand the proper spirit of what she was asking. She was just curious about your cult experience - she wasn't trying to be nosy, but helpful. Telling her it's " none of her damned business " won't get you any brownie points around here - especially acting that way to a lady. You say that " you were responsible for your own cult experience ". Well, fine. I accept that. But many of us WERE NOT responsible for our cult experience and had it thrusted upon us and stayed in it due to threats from family or friends that we would be disowned and shunned as well.
I think you perhaps need to open your mind up somewhat that we all experience being in a mind control cult differently - and that our way of going through things and assessing things is not the ONLY WAY. Nobody was trying to diss you here. Just trying to understand your point of view.
HEAVEN- My JW daughters at times used to check out what " worldly " or non-witness magazines I had sitting on my coffee table when they would visit me as teenagers. I'm glad you have been able to educate yurself and avoid joining the witnesses over the years. In so doing you avoided many of the heartaches and pitfalls that those of us who WERE witnesses at one time experienced. I hope you continue being free ! Good for you
flipper

BOYZONE- Good points you make about Ray Franz not willingly deceiving people. He was humble enough to admit the errors of the WT society and exit the WT cult after having it exposed to him. It took a lot of courage for Ray Franz to do what he did in exiting and writing a book exposing the WT society's fallacies and errors.
PSACRAMENTO- Good point you make. Many times it takes getting to the top of an organization before the view becomes clear. Especially at the top of the WT society where secret meetings took place that ONLY GB members were allowed to attend. I'm sure so many other things happened of which we were never made aware of. But Franz exposing these things helps greatly.
CYBERJESUS- Good points you make. I think Happy Guy and everybody needs to understand that ALL Jehovah's Witnesses were at one time mind controlled , even Ray Franz, so he was misled like others to write crap that the WT society approved. But we all gotta give Ray credit that when he finally learned of the scam that is the WT society- he did something about it, took a stand and manned up leaving the organization in spite of losing friendships. That took a hell of a lot of courage. Just like what Barbara Anderson did. Standing up for what is right when you know people are gonna shot you down - is an extremely difficult, yet courageous thing to do. I admire the hell out of Ray Franz and Barbara Anderson. We need more people like them in this world ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
The Almighty Homer

Just to clear things up a little about Ray Franz and his involvement with the WTS., Ray was just another typical JW who
followed along with the teaching of the WTS. and was fully emerged as one, in essence a true believer.
It wasn't until he reached to the top of the organization as a GB member, which essentially is the writing and editing
department, that after some of his own research things were just not adding up. One of the first things he mentions
in his book CoC, after some personal research from other sources he found that the destruction of ancient Jerusalem was not
in the year that the WTS. had said it was in and other investigations continued on from there. I think after a while
he found within himself that the JW organization was not what they were proclaiming to be after all and it unsettled
his conscience to a point that he couldn't continue on with the organization, so he left.
In other words he acknowledged that the guiding power of god wasn't really there, what was there though was only the power of men.
HappyGuy

flipper,

So now you want to talk trash about my character? I dont have a chip on my shoulder.
My point of view is very clear. I don't beleive everything Ray franz says just because he says so. I said nothing about anyone else, I hold this opinion because Franz was on the governing body, the group responsible for the brain washing.

I have read too many posts on this forum where "facts" were being given based on Franz said so. The only thing I said was "is it wise to put such stock into the writings of someone like that?".
My words were twisted and it was made to look like I was accusing EVERY ex JW on here of being a liar. I never even came close to sayiing that. So, if the following is not an attempt to twist what I said and misrepresent it to appear that I was accusing EVERY ex JW of being culpable and not trustworthy, then you tell me what is meant here. I see clearly what the poster was trying to do. Actually, never mind. It is obvious to me that some on here believe this Franz character in the same way that they took everything the WTBTS said as the gospel. I don't share that opinion. Now you want to lecture me? I think maybe it is you who are a bit big for his briches.
Do you not believe that some of the Governing Body really believe what they have been taught, and really believe what they have aspired to become?

There are ex-JW's on this board.

There are ex-Ministerial Servants on this board.

There are ex-Elders on this board (actually, I believe there are a few who are active. Yes, this is true.)

There are ex-Bethelites on this board (and plenty of them! Thank you all for being here!)

There are ex-Presiding Overseers and ex-Circuit Overseers on this board.

At what point do you personally draw the line, Happy Guy? Who is responsible for your cult experience? How far up the ranks does a "Brother" have to go until you consider him to be completely without redemption?
HappyGuy

Good points you make. I think Happy Guy and everybody needs to understand that ALL Jehovah's Witnesses were at one time mind controlled , even Ray Franz, so he was misled like others to write crap that the WT society approved. But we all gotta give Ray credit that when he finally learned of the scam that is the WT society- he did something about it, took a stand and manned up leaving the organization in spite of losing friendships. That took a hell of a lot of courage. Just like what Barbara Anderson did. Standing up for what is right when you know people are gonna shot you down - is an extremely difficult, yet courageous thing to do. I admire the hell out of Ray Franz and Barbara Anderson. We need more people like them in this world !
And I did the same, as did you and everyone else on this board. When we saw through the lies we left and we lost friends, family, and perhaps even livelihood in the process. We all stood up for what we considered to be right. Any honest person would do the same.
I think you are making a bit of a leap to continue to insist that Franz was totally fooled. I also don't buy the "he was just a regular guy who just happened to be appointed to the Governing Body". I don't think it works that way. I'm not saying you are wrong about that, but I don't think you can state that as a fact.
I really don't understand what is so wrong with my saying that I think it is unwise to believe everything Franz says just because he says so.
Other people on this forum have said the same thing, or words to that effect, and you didn't flame them.
t33ap80c

Happy Guy,
You said, "I think it is unwise to believe everything Franz says just because he say so."
Can you give an example or two of something Ray Franz has said that you feel would be "unwise to believe"? Or that it would be wise for us to disbelieve?
Don Cameron
flipper

THE ALMIGHTY HOMER- I agree with you that Franz was a true believer for a long time, albeit he was mind controlled like the rest of the witnesses. Towards the end of his stay on the governing body and through the last 10 years especially I feel Ray Franz proved it to himself that the WT society was wrong in it's takes on things. It was a gradual process for him and he got to his breaking point like many of us do. As you said it bothered his conscience enough to make him exit the cult.
HAPPY GUY- I'm not trying to attack your character. I'm explaining to you that in my opinion you came off very aggressive and rude to the female poster Baba Yaga . I understand your point of view. I get it. But I still think you are misinterpreting what Baba Yaga was saying in her post to you. Nobody is out to get you, O.K. ? She was not being mean to you - yet she just wanted to know what led to you exiting the cult. What your thought process in leaving, that's all.
I do think Ray Franz was duped by mind control - for a period of time- but once he educated himself and saw through the lies of the WT society and made a decision to leave Bethel I think his blinders came off like what happens to many of us. I'm not flaming you or lecturing you , we just have different opinions as you do with Baba Yaga. If I start a thread and I see some misunderstandings between people I will try to clarify issues. No offense was meant to you . If you took it that way, I'm sorry. Believe me , I agree- I am a bit too big for my britches - literally that is - my jeans fit too tight at times around my waist ! LOL! Peace to you, Mr. Flipper

Ray Franz Views of "Information Control" by WT Society Agree with Hassan

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