I think they *know* what seems far fetched or simply wrong. It seems they've accepted the mantle and feel God DOES use them in a special way. I think they recognize the imperfections but cling to the idea they must be right since they were specially chosen. In other words, they might believe in their own hype.
Evil lying Manipulators OR Captive Duped Slaves Duping Others (or some of both)?
by OnTheWayOut 57 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
flipper
OTWO- Very good points you bring up. I think that the element of " cult mind control" possessing the governing body needs to be emphasized here as well. It is true as you say that the GB " believes that they are serving Jehovah and they have learned from the OT and from each other that Jehovah allows such crap to take place. " O.K. That might be. But just because I bark like a dog ; doesn't make me a dog. They learn from "each other " but remember that " each " of them are deluded to a greater degree by " cult mind control". So it's easy when the GB members are living in a delusional world to deceive themselves into believing they are appointed by God. Doesn't mean that they don't still have ulterior motives though when they flash back into their " authentic, real " personality.
You mentioned " they don't live good enough to justify what they do for money and power ". But think about it- If we were in their position would we flash our monetary benefits around so as to raise suspicion in rank and file members ? These men like Ted Jaracz get top notch medical care - unlike MANY Jehovah's Witnesses who if they had strokes might be crippled for life financially without medical insurance. And who might be dead because they couldn't get medical attention fast enough. If, as suspected the GB and corporate WT attorneys or other hidden powers ARE running a financial scam - they obviously are NOT going to reveal how they are pulling it off in an open manner for all to see. Leaders of the WT society don't have to live like the Catholic pope to benefit from wealth. Hell - They have free medical insurance, don't have to pay for lodging, transportation is provided for them via jets, and many automobiles donated to the WT society from duped wealthy members . And who knows HOW MUCH wealth they may have tucked away in some hidden accounts ? Top members of this cult are set up for life based on what all the little " worker bees " keep accomplishing in the worldwide preaching work and donations of trust funds, real estate wills upon death of wealthy members, life insurance policies , you name it.
History on this planet is rife with people in power and control taking advantage of people who don't have the power and control . The WT society is no different from any other power mongering entity that history has produced many times over
-
OnTheWayOut
Happy Guy, you make good points. But it was already pointed out that the donations are down for WTS. Let me address that. I really doubt that WTS is racking in billions of dollars a year. (Perhaps 1 or 2 Billion or so per year is closer to accurate- still alot.) It might have been the plan at one time, but changing to a voluntary donation process has eroded their business plan terribly.
So, figure $20 a month for magazines per publishers.
Many congregations have members that feel that their personal sacrifice of time is enough. If they actually get some donations from the field, they will give them to WTS, but they contribute little else to the worldwide work. Many cong. in the USA would get about 2000 magazines and contribute perhaps $1000 or less to WTS. That's still $0.50 per magazine and ZERO for books. Not exactly a goldmine, but still a profit when you figure WTS pays no taxes and uses slave wages to make the mags. So expenses have to be figured in for paper, ink, and slaves.
I'm sure many JWs give a lot more and many a lot less but I think an average of $100 is about right. So, 7 million x $100 is $700 million.
For total contributions, some congs. might average $100 per person, but that would be total contributions. As I said above, the worldwide work might be $1000 per month. The rest of member contributions are for local needs, not for WTS. While I am certain it is lower than $100 per member, it doesn't matter. It is for the electricity and the expenses. If the fund grows, the locals start contributing less and actually enjoy some of their own money. 50,000 congs. (I forget the actual number) would contribute roughly $600 million a year (less than what you figured for one month) with those figures, and they do have to pay those slight expenses out of that.
Members hear what their total contribution is every month in local announcements. Most publishers think that one or two thousand is plenty, and they don't hear much about how much literature was 'placed' in total.So, figure 10 million attending 3 assemblies a year, that is 30 million and figure $20 a head in donations and whatever latest scam is being run. That is $600 million.
WTS probably does make more than your figure for circuit assemblies and conventions, even without the parking scam. (The parking scam actually helps me to think they are evil manipulators, along with their dishonesty about hotels and the 'deficit' at each assembly.) So I won't dispute your number. I actually think they rack in far more for these sales seminars. I would say to figure $40 a head at the Summer conventions, getting to $400,000,000 and add in another $400,000,000 from all the circuit assemblies. But I assume that they do this well in countries that are not as afluent as the USA and Britain. They may do much worse.
Now, we haven't even talked about people putting the WTBTS in their wills, or elderly JWs donating their assets in trusts. No one kmows how much this adds up to but say that 1% of the JWs donate $50,000 a year in these special ways, that is 70,000 x $50,000 = $35 million.
Who is to say how much they make on this. My personal observation is that most pioneers die broke. Most people with family actually break from the cult mindset and leave their valuables to family. So I will just accept the $35 million as possible.
Real estate sales is big but it will run out. It cannot be figured into yearly profits. Even if they made 1 Billion from it, it is a one-time deal. I am only up to less than $1.5 Billion per year (plus real estate) and I imagine my numbers are still inflated. Still not a bad haul.
Perhaps you are right about the stockholders, because I cannot figure where all that money goes in expenses.
-
HappyGuy
Happy Guy, let me adjust some of your conclusions.
The Watchtower Society is very similar to other religions in the respect that, they are asset rich but cash flow poor. Years ago, LoBello wrote about the Vatican having this same problem.
Thanks for offering to teach me metatron, but I have researched this very thoroughly for many years and I know different. The power behind the governing body is not cash poor. They own billions of dollars worth of stocks and bonds. Stocks that pay dividends and bonds that pay interest. They own billions of dollars worth of real estate that they lease out. They have duped millions of elderly people into leaving them all their assets in their wills and trusts.
Do you truly believe these liars when they launch a fund rasing drive claiming to "need" money for some equipment they want to purchase? I don't believe them. I think they have a yearly quota of "voluntary" donations that they want to meet and they make up stories about "needs" to encourage the gullible to donate more. A few hundred million is nothing to these people. THey have stocks in war making industries worth far more than that.
The WTBTS basically has no expenses. Printing cost is their biggest cost. Any costs associated with keeping the circuit and district overseers in new cars and RVs is passed on to the congregations who are given quotas on how much they have to "voluntarily" donate to buy these. The assemblies are money makers, as is the quick build program. No, I do not believe that the WTBTS has a cash flow problem.
I think the biggest dupes of all are the governing body, but not in terms of the spiritual lies, but in terms of the wealth that is being accumulated but the governing body have zero to their name.
If you have never been to Bethel, you need to go. Forget the terrible social and cultural environment at Bethel, just look at the squalor of the buildings they live in. You could not pay me to live in that dammm place. People are people and no one wants to live in squalor. The first time I went to Columbia Heights, I didnt' go to see the HQ, I was just in the area with some friends, and it was they who commented on how this was basically a dead zone socially and culturally. And they were not even against the "religion", just commenting on how bleak everything looked and how there were no people out on the street or in the cafes or restaurants. I just spent a few more days exploring the area to see for myself. I even got a tour of Bethel. LOL. The idiots let a die hard apostate in and the Holy Spirit didn't even warn them. But the point is that the GB members live in this squalor and get nothing out of it except room and board. They have to be able to add, they know that he WTBTS is worth hundreds of billions and they personally get not one penny.
Where does the money go? I dont' know. I think that the 50 shareholders receive dividends but I cannot prove that. I know they did receive dividends in the early days. In 1944 a shroud was placed over the doings of this corporation and it is impossible to say now.
I dont' want to get into an argument over minutiae. My point is that the controlling corporation that Russel set up has 50 shareholders and these people and the lawyers control hundreds of billions of dollars in assets and over 1 billion per year in income. These people definitely are not being duped. Is the governing body being duped. I say yes in terms of that they are being used to amass a fortune that they will never get one penny of, but no in terms of they know that they are not what they claim, therefore everything they say is a lie and they know that.
-
OnTheWayOut
Happy Guy: I wasn't talking about the governing body. That is not where the real power is. Yes, those senile octaganerians make doctrinal policy but the doctrinal policies do not control the assets. You have to look deeper.
I understood what you meant. What I meant was that the GB doesn't live high enough on the hog to justify going along with the money-siphoning unless they are duped some themselves. I cannot imagine them being evil enough to scam the members and then give the money to someone else.
Flipper, yes it is possible that the GB live better than we realize. I think it is more likely that they just "feel" that whatever lifestyle they get is better than walking away and living in a trailer with no income (Think Ray Franz). They have sold their souls already, but it still leaves us wondering if they sold them knowingly or by being duped like the members. I know they also live off the green handshakes. For a GB member, they don't need a dime of those handshakes, so they can funnel it all off to an account for their families. It just confuses me more to try to figure out their angle on the money. Good points by many here.
-
The Almighty Homer
Perhaps for a different reason that DNCall posted, I saw something there. From having elders' meetings where we prayed for Holy Spirit, I get this. We prayed, then we assumed that our own opinion was "blessed." If Jehovah allowed us to continue feeling a certain way after praying, we felt that Jehovah gave us that feeling. I can imagine the GB members doing that. When a newbie or someone with a conscience speaks up about the manipulating and deceiving of members, they say "We prayed over it, Jehovah still allowed us to think it was a good idea."
Good explanatory insight to the psychology of the GB members !
God is backing this organization because we prayed for his support, essentially he's perceived as a one of the members of the group,
but of course an invisible one. All relgiuos orgaizations like this preceive that god is backing them with his full support though.
Captive duped slaves duping others, maybe for the benefit of themselves, maybe not.
The past deceit and corruption of this organization is acknowledged fact, call it cruel exploition or whatever
but this was the prime reason Ray Franz left , he just couldn't stand it any more, probably the same reason why many of us left as well.
-
HappyGuy
OnTheWayOut: I know they also live off the green handshakes.
Excuse my naivete, but what is a green handshake?
-
DNCall
A couple of thoughts:
Regarding who wields the real power, it must be acknowledged that legal has much influence over the operation of the various corporations. At times, this can spill over into congregation procedure (i.e., wording of disfellowshipping/disassociation announcements, child custody issues, etc.)
Perhaps the stockholders likewise have influence and are enriched by the organization's operations. In the absence of hard evidence, this is speculative. The stockholders I have known would be wealthy without their involvement in the corporate affairs of the Society. I believe the real power lies in the power over people's lives, as opposed to power to make decisions governing corporations. The lawyers and stockholders are Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing. As such, they are under the power of the Governing Body. Without the power over people's lives, there would be no cash flow, no volunteer workforce and no need for corporations.
As far as how aware the GB is of past error is concerned, I believe Ray Franz wrote that he was unaware of certain negative aspects of the religion's history when he was on the GB. From what I know, in the post-Rutherford era, those with substantive knowledge in this area are all dead. I don't believe any on the current Governing Body are as aware of the organization's true history as are many on this board.
F.
-
The Almighty Homer
HappyGuy, men doing personal business with the WTS directly or inner personal business relationships.
Hence green handshakes.
-
drew sagan
Don't know if this comment will gather any attention (like my last post ahem...) but I just want to emphasize something.
Most Watchtower leaders of the past few decades have been followers of the "masters" so to speak. Doctrine has been tweaked, but never has it undergone some of the huge transitions that litter Watchtower history. Even the major "generation" change in 95 was forced, not by the inspiration of individuals, but instead by the passage of time.
Like most individual 'rank and file' JWs, I would expect WTS leaders (including the GB) to strongly defend a good bit of Watchtower doctrine. Topics such as the use of the name Jehovah, exsistance of hellfire, immortal soul, use of the cross, and pagan christmas provide enough evidence in and of themselves that the Witnesses are "the truth".
It does not take that much intellectual power to believe that the above mentioned arguments prove you have "the truth". According to Watchtower statistics, millions of people do this every day .
What most of you here seem to believe is that those "at the top" somehow have a different perspective on the religion than the adverage members. Of course they do! They are the damn leaders. But they are restricted by tradition and circumstance. They cannot act out of a certain framework. Even on the governing body, the members most likely expect each other to live up to a certain dedication to the traditions of the faith. In essence, the same social pressue that holds captive the membership most likely restricts and directs the actions of the leadership. Living within such a system, I doubt very much that any leader has much incentive to deviate from traditionally held narratives and ideas. Those men have lived their whole lives to get into those positions, what motivation do they have to "rock the boat" so to speak? Instead, it seems that the institutional structure itself encourages the maintinence of the status quo.
No great conspiracy. No great "evil" per se. Just another institution bound by traditions and ideology.
Just my