Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God. Any ideas?

by jonathan dough 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Narkissos

  designs,

  there is a correlation between what people believe and their actions.

  By such standards all beliefs are justified by the "good" actions of believers and condemned by their "bad" actions.

  And then of course there is the whole ethical issue of what this says about a Supreme Being.

  As I said, I do see a serious ethical problem in the "hell" doctrine. Not in the Trinity. If "doctrinal packages" are to be condemned globally by association, antitrinitarianism must be condemned just as trinitarianism, since both have been historically combined with the "hell" doctrine. I doubt you haven't "got" it already.

  DD,

  Doesn't any notion of grace, in the end, "oppose ultimate judgement"?
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  Deputy Dog

  Nark

  Doesn't any notion of grace, in the end, "oppose ultimate judgement"?

  Not at all.

  Those of whom God redeems, were condemned, but now, are to be reformed by God's grace.
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  Narkissos

  DD:

  Forest / tree, moon / finger. Hierarchy of revelation. If justice is ultimate, redemption is nothing but a morally and legally questionable loophole. If love is ultimate, justice is an illusion. You don't really believe God is love (that's not an accusation, you have admitted that before if I'm not mistaken: "not love only," and I respect this opinion, although I have no sympathy for it).
• 

  PSacramento

  DD,

  I do NOT believe in a "fire and brimstone" hell and I do not believe in eternal punishment for those that do not repent, at least not in the "agonizing continous torture punishment".

  I believe that, after the final judgment, those that continue unrepentant, who will probably be very few, will have all of God's grace taken away and God will indeed turn his back on them and they will no longer be in God's "light", which for me is a far more dreadful thing than everlasting torture.
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  Deputy Dog

  Nark

  I think you mischaracterize my position. God is more than simply love. Love without justice (or any of the rest of Gods attributes) would be cruel to someone.

  The problem we have is, who would quality to be the mediator that can decide how those attributes are applied and to whom. Would you suggest that this is not the prerogative of God alone?
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  Deputy Dog

  PS

  I believe that, after the final judgment, those that continue unrepentant, who will probably be very few, will have all of God's grace taken away and God will indeed turn his back on them and they will no longer be in God's "light", which for me is a far more dreadful thing than everlasting torture.

  I think this is where this discussion is incomplete. I tend to agree, with much of your last statement. But, it's not the literalness of hell that is in question here. I think hell could be much more dreadful than Dante's Inferno.
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  PSacramento

  DD,

  God gave the role of mediator, judge, saviour and redeemer, to the one person who could be all that, his divine sone Jesus who is the "exact form of God" but "did not consider being equal to God something to hold on to", but gave himself up to become fully man and in doing so, God, through Jesus, went through the whole gamit of human exsistence, all the pain and joy that goes with being human and on Jesus's death, God gave unto him the role of "authority over all, king of all kings, rulere of all rulers" and sat him at his side, forever.

  Only Jesus can judge and decide and be a mediator for ALL of us because in Jesus, God dwells FULLY and so does Man.
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  Deputy Dog

  PS

  Jesus/Mediator

  On that we agree. He is the one Job pleaded for.
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  stillajwexelder

  Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is not one God but three in one
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  Narkissos

  DD,

  I did not mean to mischaracterise your position (especially knowing that you would instantly correct me, lol), and I don't think I did: "not love only" = "more than simply love" to me... that's where our understanding of the "spirit" (core, thrust) of Christianity diverge, but I think I understand your general position.