Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God. Any ideas?

by jonathan dough 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog
    Think it through and do good every day.

    Without the grace of God, that is impossible. Even for you.

  • designs

    Narkissos, the Church of Rome and the founders of the Reformation were proponents of Hell as a place of conscious torment, it was intrinsic to their definition of god- what he is, what he does, how he loves and punishes.

    I said that some contemporary branches of Judaism hold this idea of temporary punishement and then a person is released to paradise.

  • designs

    DD, well I must be graced. But I sure wouldn't put the Supreme Being in the bottle you do.

  • Chalam

    Without the grace of God, that is impossible. Even for you.


    Romans 3:22-24 (New International Version)

    22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    Psalm 143:2 (New International Version)

    2 Do not bring your servant into judgment,
    for no one living is righteous before you.

    Isaiah 64:6 (New International Version)

    6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
    we all shrivel up like a leaf,
    and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

    Ezra 9:15 (New International Version)

    15 O LORD, God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."

    Job 15:14-16 (New International Version)

    14 "What is man, that he could be pure,
    or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?

    15 If God places no trust in his holy ones,
    if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,

    16 how much less man, who is vile and corrupt,
    who drinks up evil like water!

    All the best,


  • Chalam

    This passage speaks for itself

    Ephesians 2 (New International Version)

    Made Alive in Christ
    1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. All the best, Stephen
  • Narkissos
    the Church of Rome and the founders of the Reformation were proponents of Hell as a place of conscious torment, it was intrinsic to their definition of god- what he is, what he does, how he loves and punishes.

    So were the founders of Islam. Iow the connection of "God" with an absolutised notion of retribution (which is basically what "hell" is about) has nothing to do with his being "in three persons" (which is what the Trinity is about) or not.

    I would even say that if there is a (fringe) relationship it is the opposite of what you think. Because in the (economic) Trinity "God" actually takes the judgement/condemnation/punishment/torment onto himself (in part only, for "dualistic" Trinitarians who believe in a reality of Hell apart from that; fully and unconditionally, for many Trinitarian "universalists").

  • designs

    Stephen, you are still stuck with this big fly in your theological oinment- You conceive of a Supreme Being who tortures people for all eternity.

    There should be a little warning sign above the Church door where you attend- 'We're Just another Cult'.

  • PSacramento


    I am not a Trinitarian, not because I disagree with the view that Jesus is God as the trinity proposes it, but because I do NOT view belief in the Trinity as a prerequiste for salvation.

    That said, I do NOT view God as uncaring and cruel, I have many issues with God's portrayal in the OT, to me the Old Covenant is not applicable, I am under the New Covenant, hwere Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and his most vital and last commandment of "love each other as I have loved you" is the cornerstoen of Christian faith.

    Hell has no meaning for me, nor do I fear death or torment and I certainly don't fear my beloved Father and his Son.

    When you say "do good simply" you are eching Paul's view of righteousness through faith, that we do what is right(good) because it is right and NOT because we fear God or want salvation, God' grace has given us that salvation if we want it, we do NOT do good because its i the Law or it is commanded, we do NOT keep the commandements so that we may be saved, we do it out of love, withoyt recompense.

    Simply put, a good Christian does good, simply ;)

  • designs

    Narkissos, do you see the silliness of this whole punishment routine. All of these concepts of punishment floating through various religions reducing the Supreme Being to the pettiness of what humans conceive and desire.........

  • designs

    PS, yes! Thanks

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