Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God. Any ideas?

by jonathan dough 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento


    I have come to see that people of "faith" are divided into 3 types:

    Those that believe the trinity

    Those that don't

    Those that "don't care" either way.

    Those that believe the trinity will see your "proof" and agree, those that don't will see it an disagree and those that "don't care" will see it and understand your point ( even if they don't agree) but will also understand the point of non-trinitarians.

    The truth is somewhere in the middle I think, simply because many anti-trinitarians have the wrong idea of what the Trinity is and that is the fault of the teachers of chirstianity.

    As you can tell by Blue Grass's response, the very "evidence" you show is to him/her ( sorry I don't know which one you are BG) is not only not enough, it is in same cases "proof" against the Trinity.

    How can that be?

  • designs

    Jonathan and Stephen would actualy make a hilarious Saturday Night Live skit if it were not so tragic that they actually believe what they do.

    A 5'6" Jesus flying around heaven, people burning in Hell....tis tragic.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Blue Grass, each and every one of your objections is answered and dispensed with here. They are called hyperlinks. You click on one and it takes you to a web page which discusses those issues. Obviously you have not read any of it.But thanks for your comments nonetheless.

    Jd II

  • PSacramento

    I am not sure why BG says in regards to point 36" There is no "I AM", anyone that has read that verse in John in an interlinear, including the Kingdom intelienar, can see that the greek work for I AM is there and in a few other places in John, actuallu all over the place in John.

    Look at John 4:26 and 6:20 for example.

  • darkl1ght3r

    I must agree with the glenster and others who said that people will see the "proof" that they want to see, and continue to believe what they want to believe. However, a comparison of the two positions will show that one is more consistent with the totality of what the scriptures say about the subject, whereas the other requires denial of scripture. For example, the Alpha/Omega First/Last issue in Revelation. The JW position requires the Bible to NOT mean what it says. The same with the doubting Thomas passage, and the numerous OT parallels that the Gospels drew between Yahweh and Jesus.

  • PSacramento

    To me it comes down to what seems to be appearant:

    The JW do not follow the teachings of the New Convenant and they don't seem to recognise the authority of Jesus, oh they pay "lip service" to it, but the truth is, go to any KH and hear their "preaching" and you hear: Jehovah, organization, the truth, FDS, far more than you hear the name of Jesus.

  • Blue Grass
    Blue Grass

    I said there is no "I AM" because God said to Moses "I will be" as in he will reveal himself through his power by freeing them from Egypt. "I am" or "I will be"/"I shall be" is not a title for God.

  • cheerios

    truthfully, what does it matter? if you believe he is, great. if you dont, great. i'll answer your questions:

    1. Do you believe in God? - dont know because i havent decided. does it really matter to you what anyone else believes?

    2. Do you believe the bible is inspired by God? - dont know if there is a god to inspire it, so question is moot

    3. Do you believe in a in-errant bible? - i suppose you mean 'error free'. see the answers to 1 and 2.

    4. Do you believe Jesus is God or "a god"? - i know a guy named Jesus. he is from mexico. he thinks he is god .. in bed .. but his wife says otherwise. if there was a real person that walked around named Jesus who claimed/didn't claim to be a god or the god, it was a long, long time ago and has nothing to do with me. frankly, i don't really care. if you need to believe that jesus is god (or for that matter, that jesus is a god), well good on you - knock yourself out.

    Here are some more advanced questions. - good, because those questions were lame and seemed somewhat condescending

    A. What is "Armageddon"? - a really old-sounding word that self-righteous people like to talk about

    B. Who will be "resurrected"? - i hope george carlin. he'd love to meet you and talk to you about your beliefs.

    C. What is the "second death"? - it's preferable to reading single-minded drivel like this

    D. What determines my part in the above? - i don't know what determines your part. don't really care. you are responsible for your own choices, as am i (and every other sentient being on the planet.) seems like there's a phrase for that ... oh yeah! free will!

  • glenster

    darkl1ght3r: "I must agree with the glenster... However, a comparison of the
    two positions will show that one is more consistent...." I just wanted to be
    clear that the part after "However" is part of the agreement.

    designs: "you actually believe in a cruel Supreme Being."

    Some believers or atheists try too hard to prove God is or isn't there, a
    belief thing, and have more in common than they realize. It's just that one
    probably uses good things and the other uses bad things. Some believers might
    say, "God's a flower," probably intending something about an intelligent design
    outlook about biological complexity, but my point is they always pick a nice
    thing. Complexity is complexity, but it's never "Look at inoperable cancer so
    bad the person offed themself--you can see His hand at work. You know there's a

    Likewise, there are atheists who try too hard, except they use bad things,
    like a reference to an OT scripture about God having a group of people killed in
    a battle in 600 BC or such. But the way the concept goes is that if He didn't
    have them killed, He would have had them die later, anyway--He has everyone die.
    It's one of the more difficult aspects of God's prerogative, but it's covered by
    the concept and was covered in Job a long time ago.

    It's the atheist version of "God's a flower." Both have the same world with
    flowers and deaths--they're not make or break points. The best you can do is be
    glad you got a shot at life and what good you found in it like Job whether you
    believe in God or not. And the ones who get too 'centric of either group (or
    about race, etc.) have caused the most deaths, so if it's deaths you don't like,
    just be sure not to be one of the ones of whichever group who are too 'centric.

    Not everyone follows those behaviors, though. George Carlin: "I think we're
    already 'circling the drain' as a species, and I'd love to see the circles get a
    little faster and a little shorter." Regarding a California earthquake in the
    early 1970s: "I really think there's great human drama in destruction and nature
    unleashed and I don't get enough of it." I know George was an atheist, but I
    don't think it was because He thought some of the outlooks of the God of the
    Bible are too cruel. You'd think it would have been grounds for a bonding ex-

    cheerios: "B. Who will be 'resurrected'? - i hope george carlin. he'd love to
    meet you and talk to you about your beliefs." This may have been the most
    puzzling thing in the thread. If a Christian resurrection gets George Carlin
    out of the eternal rehab, he'd still be funny sometimes, but I don't think he'd
    be badmouthing people for believing in Jesus anymore....

  • Chalam

    Hi Will and welcome aboard!

    Thanks for your answers. Of course, all the others hinge on question 1, as you have shown.

    does it really matter to you what anyone else believes?

    Well of course :) I am a testimony to the life that Jesus brings but ultimately you need to check it out and decide for yourself.

    Anyhow, the questions are for designs who on mere mention of the Trinity starts moaning about God's judgement.

    Hence I have posed these questions to try and find out what he believes as opposed to what he does not.

    All the best,


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