Believers Eternal Security vs. Tribulation Salvation

by Perry 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bob1999

    "Because Abraham and the beggar of Luke 16 are seen in Paradise before Jesus' sacrifice. "

    The sacrifice of Christ is so powerful that it saved people before it even happened.

    Why do you bind God to time?

    God is not bound by His own creation.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    No need to get upset. Maybe it is hyper-dyspensational c**p.

    I'm not upset. At least not at you. But you and this guy aren't the first people I've run accross with this idea.

    Since this is an important subject to me, I would very much be interested in seeing a comparison of any scriptures that show a doctrinal difference in the very modest King James updates made over the last 400 years..... not including the New King James since it has numerous doctrinal changes.

    Like? Let me save you some trouble. Have you read James White's book The King James only controversy? He does an excellent job. It is much more complete than anything I can give you.

    Don't know if I can go along with that. I think they needed faith that they were enough...especially since they had no general working knowledge of Jesus' sacrifice. I'd say that it's not that they weren't enough as much as they were simply inferior to Christ's sacrifice.

    Gal 3:18

    For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    The promise of Christ (or the Messiah) goes back to the fall:

    Gen 3:15

    I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

    It continues through the Old Testament. What promise did you think they were to have faith in? Faith that God would send a Messiah produced works of faith (sacrifices), just as faith that Jesus is the Christ produces works of faith today.

    Did you have a particular scripture in mind when you wrote this?

    Gal 4:4

    But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

    Rom 8:3

    For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

    Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

    Hebrews 10 and 11 are all about this very point.

    Heb 10:1

    For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    Heb 10:5

    Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" 8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    Heb 10:11

    And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

    As you read chapter 11, every time you come to the words "by faith", it's faith in Christ (the Messiah) that's implied. Look at verse 24 for example:

    Heb 11:24

    By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, forhe was looking to the reward.

    If you have never seen this before I hope it is as much a blessing to you as it is to me, to see Christ in the Old Testament, it should change the way you read it.

    This of course in no way changes anything about Church age salvation.... and really changes little about tribulation salvation. It does provide some explanations to the many accuasations brought on by unsaved bible critics.

    How many ways of salvation are there in any "age"?

  • BurnTheShips

    The sacrifice occurred at a point in human history, but it also happened in eternity, as such, it applies to all humans that have ever lived at all points in time. As such, it is immediately present at all times. It was just veiled to those that lived before that time.


  • Perry

    Here are a few verses in the NKJV that have been CHANGED to teach a works/Progressive salvation:

    Romans 3:3 'faithfulness' (NKJV) 'faith' (KJV)

    Romans 11:30 'disobedient' (NKJV) 'not believed' (KJV)

    Romans 11:32 'disobedient' (NKJV) 'unbelief' (KJV)

    1 Corinthians 1:18 'are being saved' (NKJV) 'are saved' (KJV)

    2 Corinthians 2:15 'are being saved' (NKJV) 'are saved' (KJV)

    Haven't read Whites book. But since you have several times claimed that KJV has been changed, don't you think that you could provide just one example of a doctrinal change for me?

    I appreciate the research you provided on the dispensational salvation rebuttal. A couple of points there I will research out.

    God Bless.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    So DD,
    You're saying that faith apart from works is justification in the sight of God; and faith plus works is justification in the sight of men?

    Sorry I missed this

    I would say, works confirm faith among men, from a human standpoint.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    Haven't read Whites book. But since you have several times claimed that KJV has been changed, don't you think that you could provide just one example of a doctrinal change for me?

    I must be missing your point. You can charaterize the changes or errors however you like. My point is no translations (including the KJV) are perfect and yes, some are better than others. The Textus Receptus isn't perfect either, most of the book of Revelation for example, was translated from Latin back to Greek.

    Here is one we can laugh at.

  • PSacramento

    RE: Works and faith.

    How can one with faith NOT do good works(deeds)?

    Faith in God's grace tells us there is nothing we NEED to do to be saved, so when we do good things out of love and not for recompense ( to be saved) we are truly doing God's Work because our deeds do NOT have to be done and when we do them we do them out of love with NO ulterior motives at all.

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    So what are we to do with apparent contradictions like this one when unsaved bible critics point things like this out? If not dispensational salvation, then what?

    Then What? We take the time to understand the verse IN CONTEXT.

    Romans 3:27,28Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Paul's conclusion is clear - salvation is "no more of works" (It used to be!!) but now faith alone justifies! James is just as clear as Paul.

    Perry, you really need to read things more closely. Where in Romans 3:27 does it say "no more of works"? The author of this piece is putting himself under the condemnation of Rev 22:18 If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. The author added "no more” thereby changing the meaning of the verse to say something that it was never intended to say. He infers that the verse should have the added words in it.

    James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    OUCH!! What does a Christian who doesn't divide his Bible do with that verse?

    {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. {2:25} Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? {2:26} For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    If the author wishes to maintain that people were saved in different ways in different times, he has an even bigger problem:

    Hebrews {11:31} By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

    The entire chapter of Heb 11 talks of Old Testament people being saved by faith alone.

    Here is a link that explains the James verses in light of the context.

    Perry, beware of anyone that quotes a string of short verses instead of addressing them in context.

    Here are some recommended sites:






    You would do well to study the material on these sites and then unleash your passion. The verse that your author is so fond of starts with the admonition to study. You would do well to heed this call.

  • Perry

    Ok, I got it about James now. He quoted the same OT scripture that Paul did. Very clear now:

    Notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"

    That connection did it for me.

    However, on another point I have serious Christian friends that do not believe they are secure in Christ. When I've quoted scriptures like "have passed over from death to life" they simply quote another seemingly different one.

    So what is wrong with the authors exegisis here::

    Hebrews 10:26,29,38,39.
    For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him, 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    There are two important "contradictions" in these verses. The Lord Jesus Christ is "the Truth." Paul says that God wants all men to be saved by coming to the knowledge of the Truth. That knowledge makes a person a new man with a new image. A Christian is in Christ, and Christ is in a Christian. (Colossians 1:27) Once a person is in Christ he is sanctified (I Corinthians 1:2), he is secure.

    The verses in Hebrews speak of a person who had "received the knowledge of the truth." Not only that, "he was sanctified." But something happened. He drew "back unto perdition!" He lost his salvation!!

    A Christian today can't lose his salvation!! (My addition: 1 Cor. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.) This passage in Hebrews is written doctrinally for someone else. So were the next set of verses.

    II Peter 2:19-21
    While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment, delivered unto them.

    The people discussed here had been saved. They had escaped the world's pollution through the knowledge of Jesus, but then were overcome again by the world. These people cannot be Church Age Christians. How is it ever better for a Christian not to have known the way of righteousness? A Church Age Christian who goes back to live in the world is still a Christian. He'll lose his rewards but not his salvation. But during the Tribulation it is a different story. Hebrews 10:26-31 explains.

    Salvation during the Tribulation is based on both faith and works. Jesus, himself, said that love toward God, whom we can't see (faith); and love toward our neighbor, whom we can see (works) are the two commandments upon which hang all the law and prophets. (Matthew 22:36-40). The Old Testament Jewish saints were required to obey God's commandments to be and to stay saved. The Tribulation saints will be required to have faith in Christ and keep the commandments by helping their neighbors. Time after time this theme is expounded. (Matthew 10:40-42; Matthew 19:16-21; Luke 10:25-37; Hebrews 6:10; Hebrews 10:24; James 1:22-27; James 2:1-9; I Peter 1:22) In fact, God determines the disposition of the nations according to how they treat the Jew during the Tribulation. (Matthew 25:31-46)

    During the Tribulation, if a person has faith in Christ and helps his neighbor then Christ will dwell in him. If he breaks one of these commandments his former righteousness does not count, just as it was in the Old Testament. One must endure to the end and not be overcome. (II Peter 2:20)

  • Mad Dawg
    Mad Dawg

    The Scriptures seem to indicate that one is able to denounce their faith. It is not that one will wake up one morning and he will have “lost” his salvation. It would be a deliberate action on our part. I suggest that if one is concerned about whether or not his salvation is “lost”, then it is not.

    Once again, the author strips verses of their context: Hebrews 10:26,29,38,39. The verses that he leaves out are important to understanding the text.

    During the Tribulation, if a person has faith in Christ and helps his neighbor then Christ will dwell in him.

    This statement is based on a false premise. All people, in all times, are saved by grace alone. Some by looking back to the cross, other were saved by looking forward to it. The various dispensations are strictly a matter of how God revealed Himself to us, not how we get saved.

    If he breaks one of these commandments his former righteousness does not count, just as it was in the Old Testament. One must endure to the end and not be overcome. (II Peter 2:20)

    He kind of gets it here. Nobody can live without breaking one of the commandments – all 600+ of them. The law can only condemn, it is the blood of Jesus that saves. Everyone is saved by grace.

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