by Perry 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"Do you have a thought you'd like to contribute?"
I think the verses say it all.
My salvation does not depend on me. If were up to me to chose God, I wouldn't.
Since the fall, man can only run from, not toward God.
Man's heart has to be changed for man to want God.
My heart was changed but it was not my doing, but God's.
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy."
I don't think this guy understands grace. If the Jews were keeping the law, Jesus died for nothing.
The King James Bible is the final authority for all doctrine,
faith, and practice.
This guy can't be for real.
Deputy Dog,
The Jews were not under Grace, but under Law. Furthermore, they were living lives basically according to the Law. When they didn't, the animal sacrifice died in their stead...taking the death penalty in that persons place. The Jews knew not "Grace" except through the animal sacrifices. However, they needed faith that the sacrifices were enough. It did legally work. It got many Jews through this life and into the next without personal judgment. But it required both faith and works. Jesus sacrifice was based on "better promises" and included the promise of a new spirit....being born again. This new spirit cannot sin and so God says that the whole person is now righteous (justified). No more sacrifices needed, animal or of Jesus. The authors' overall point was that the Law required both works plus faith. I see nothing wrong with that statement.
Edited to add:
If the Tribulation Jews do not receive a new spirit when they believe upon Christ.... then wouldn't that put them back to faith plus works? Remember, the Church is gone at this point.
A personal decision to use the Textus Receptus as a personal standard for doctrine is just that, personal. We've had a similar exchange before. Untold millions of Christians have chosen similarily. Since bibles are so doctrinally different as I demonstrate on my own personal website here; which version do you personally accept as the best? Just curious.
Mad Dawg,
So what are we to do with apparent contradictions like this one when unsaved bible critics point things like this out? If not dispensational salvation, then what?
Romans 3:27,28
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Paul's conclusion is clear - salvation is "no more of works" (It used to be!!) but now faith alone justifies! James is just as clear as Paul.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
OUCH!! What does a Christian who doesn't divide his Bible do with that verse? Most would say: "Well, forget what it says, this it what it really means..." An honest Christian will admit to the contradiction and obey the Bible command to "rightly divide!"
James is doctrine for the Tribulation. The context of Chapter Two reveals what kind of works, coupled with faith, is needed to justify a man.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The man with true faith. live faith, will have works.
The Man with false faith, dead faith, does not have works.
If you read the whole chapter I think you will see that James is trying to point that out.
" 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
So, faith without works is no faith at all. The works don't save you. The works just show that you do have saving faith. Not just dead faith.
Perry
This guy smells of hyper-dispensationalism (John Hagee style).
However, they needed faith that the sacrifices were enough.It did legally work. It got many Jews through this life and into the next without personal judgment.
It most certainly in no way did any such thing, because if there had been a law which was able to give life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. The blood of Christ saved men in the old covenant just as it does today. They needed faith because they knew the animal sacrifices were not enough.
A personal decision to use the Textus Receptus as a personal standard for doctrine is just that, personal.
He didn't say "personal standard" he said " final authority". Are the mistakes final authority too? Not to mention he didn't say "Textus Receptus" He said, "King James Bible". I wonder which King James bible.
Perry
You can't equate James with Paul. Paul was talking about works in the sight of God. James was talking about works in the sight of men.
James 2:24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
I really don't have a favorite translation. I use them all. Probably KJV, NASB and ESV most often.
Perry
Edited to add:
If the Tribulation Jews do not receive a new spirit when they believe upon Christ.... then wouldn't that put them back to faith plus works? Remember, the Church is gone at this point.
Hyper-dispensational Crap! You can't find that taught in the bible.
Deputy Dog,
Since this is an important subject to me, I would very much be interested in seeing a comparison of any scriptures that show a doctrinal difference in the very modest King James updates made over the last 400 years..... not including the New King James since it has numerous doctrinal changes.
They needed faith because they knew the animal sacrifices were not enough.
Don't know if I can go along with that. I think they needed faith that they were enough...especially since they had no general working knowledge of Jesus' sacrifice. I'd say that it's not that they weren't enough as much as they were simply inferior to Christ's sacrifice.
The blood of Christ saved men in the old covenant just as it does today.
Did you have a particular scripture in mind when you wrote this? Because Abraham and the beggar of Luke 16 are seen in Paradise before Jesus' sacrifice.
Deputy Dog,
No need to get upset. Maybe it is hyper-dyspensational c**p. It was just my own meanderings. Are the 144,000 Jews in Rev. immortal like us? If so, where are they at the marriage supper of the lamb? We'll all be in heaven having been "caught up".
This is just a friendly discussion. I have been unsatisfied with the explanations on James that I have received from bible teachers in the past....this has been a back burner issue for me and I'm just fleshing this out a bit. This of course in no way changes anything about Church age salvation.... and really changes little about tribulation salvation. It does provide some explanations to the many accuasations brought on by unsaved bible critics.
So DD,
You're saying that faith apart from works is justification in the sight of God; and faith plus works is justification in the sight of men?
