Love, Justice, Wisdom, Power - the Resurrection

by xelder 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Perry

  Were the "all" just two categories as Calvin has it, it would already be fulfilled by the current "remnant" of Israel and Gentile believers. There would be no need for a further "mystery" moving it to a broader scale of fulfillment.

  I agree. There were believing Jews, unbelieving Jews and gentiles. It wasn't Jews & Gentiles as Calvin thought. It was "Jew" vs. Jew as Jesus taught in Rev. 2:9 and 3:9. There are no Gentiles spoken of in Rom. 9: 6. Rom. 3:3,4 confirms that the "Unbelief" of the majority of Jews does not undermine the promises made to the remnant who believe.

  Notwithstanding, there is zero hope for unbelieving Jews as well as unbelieving gentiles. The ' "all" Israel shall be saved' refers to the remnant of Jews, who at the Lords coming constitute the entire nation of Israel..... the unbelieving Jews having all been killed by the antichrist and his forces.

  Leaping from there to a "Universal Horizon" is not supported unless you have something else.
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  Narkissos

  I for one am interested in how a particular text (in this case Romans 9--11) works; not in "what the Bible teaches" (aka. patchwork theology) in general. So throwing in Revelation and "the antichrist" won't help I'm afraid.
  Paul ends up again with the "remnant" idea in 11:5 but he's obviously not satisfied with that, since he goes on about the future of those who are notof the remnant (who have stumbled, have been rejected, are enemies etc.); it's their future which is at stake from v. 11 onward, down to the "mystery" and 'pan-climax' (pan = "all"), which is characteristic of Pauline final Stoic-like doxologies.Of course the argument really makes sense in a context of relatively short-term expectation, where the identity of those who have fallen and can be restored can still be taken for granted (which is not the case anymore almost 2,000 years later).
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  Perry

  In ch. 11 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, the "real" nation (ala 9:6 ..the believing Jews according to election). Yes, the branch was broken off in 70 AD. but, they are able to be grafted in again, as a nation at the consumation of the age.

  By what reasoning do you change from a national identity in 9:6 (which we apparently agree upon) to an individual definition in ch. 11

  Perry
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  PSacramento

  It seems to me that while God has extend his mercy and grace to all and he bases this extension on the fact that he will have mercy on who he decides, period ! LOL ! It is still up to the individuals to RECEIVE this mercy, to receive God's grace.
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  Narkissos

  Yes, the branch was broken off in 70 AD. but, they are able to be grafted in again, as a nation at the consumation of the age.

  It's not the branch, but branches (v. 17ff); not collective singular (as in "the nation"), but individual plural (have they stumbled, etc.); moreover it's past tense throughout (I doubt you would date Romans to after 70 AD). Those who are to be grafted again are those who have been rejected (hence not the "remnant"). Just read the text.
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  Perry

  I believe you are radically missing the point of Romans 9 - 11. But first; don't you think that Paul knew that Jesus' prophecy about "not a stone being left upon a stone" meant the dissolution of the nation? Of course he did. But, even if he didn't know what Jesus said, I believe that God bore him along by the Holy Spirit when writing. You don't believe that God had anything to do with the bible, so there will always be times where we'll have to agree to disagree.

  The theme in ch. 9 about the "nation" is clearly carried forward in Ch. 11:

  28 As concerning the gospel, they [the nation] are enemies for your sakes °: but as touching the election, they [the nation] are beloved for the fathers sakes.

  So there was a national election, not according to works, that made its way through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (leaving Esau and Ismael behind) and that election is now continuing its descent in 9 - 11 through believing Jews and Gentiles, and will again have a fulfillment when all Israel (believing Jews) are saved, thus fulfilling the promises of God. There is nothing individual to it....it's all national.

  Micah 5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people

  The entire thrust of Rom 9 - 11 is to comfort believing Jews who might be tempted to think, "Hey God did away with the promises to Israel, might he do away with the promises to Christians"?.

  IS. 60: 21, 22 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

  The Remnant of believing Jews IS THE NATION that will be grafted in again into the [earlier] promises of God.