Love, Justice, Wisdom, Power - the Resurrection

by xelder 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Deputy Dog

  PS

  "So those whos names are written in the book of life are pre-destiend to become God's Children? no matter what?"

  Y es, I believe that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38,39)

  " Not sure what premise of mine you don't agree with, that God is all knowing?"

  D o you know what I mean by "Determinately Knowing"

  "I believe that God created Adam so that he WOULD sin? may I ask why?"

  B ecause if God is all knowing, You can't take the Watchtowers view, that God chose not to know what would happen when he created Adam. He knew because He determined it.

  "I guess you are not a believer in free will? or you have a different view of free will perhaps ?"

  I don't believe we have total freedom. You are free to desire (will) many types of sin. What you actually get, is an other story.
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  Deputy Dog

  Nark

  Saving faith in the reformed tradition to which Barth belongs is objective rather than subjective, and collective -- given to the church -- rather than strictly individual

  So, they are all Israel, which are of Israel?
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  Perry

  From a scriptural perspective, .....Romans 9 is .... a text which is a theological account of the history of salvation -- where rejection is explicitly not final.

  Nark,

  Can you please point to the part in Romans 9 that is "explicitly not final" as you referenced above?
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  PSacramento

  DD,

  Thanks for your views, very interesting.

  Can you explain "determinatley knowing" ?
• 

  Deputy Dog

  PS

  Can you explain "determinatley knowing" ?

  As simply as I can. God knows all, because He determins all
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  PSacramento

  DD,

  Thanks, I appreciate your views and patience :)
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  Narkissos

  The rhetorics of Romans 9--11 must be considered as a whole. What is said in chapter 9 about election and rejection is clearly situated in chapter 11:11-36 as historical and provisional, as a (freely chosen) means to a(n) (freely chosen) end. Taking chapter 9, the first part of this section (which is all --not just the conclusion! -- about mankind as consisting of two categories, Jews and Gentiles) as a general teaching on individual and eternal election/reprobation goes against the context and the entire Pauline argument.

  DD: I have no idea what you mean by: "So, they are all Israel, which are of Israel?"
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  Perry

  Nark,

  Just so that I am clear about what you are suggesting:

  Are you saying that the "all Israel shall be saved" statement in ch. 11 provides support for universalism in that "all" the gentiles will also be saved?
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  Deputy Dog

  Nark

  DD: I have no idea what you mean by: "So, they are all Israel, which are of Israel?"

  I'm headed down the same path Perry is. Hence the misquote of Romans 9:6
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  Narkissos

  No, that's not what I have been saying at all.

  I meant that the theory of free election and rejection which Paul develops from chapter 9 on is not applied to the eternal / final fate of anybody (Calvin's mistake), but to the "historical" and "provisional" fall/rejection of "Israel" (with the exception of a "remnant") and subsequent election of the Gentiles, which are still both subject to change (this is precisely the point of v. 11ff: those who have been "broken off" can still be "grafted in," et vice versa).

  Now the final "happy ending" (the "mystery" by which both "all Israel" and the "fulness of Gentiles" are to be saved, v. 25ff) goes beyond this: the "all" who have experienced disobedience and will be shown mercy at this point exceeds the present number of "believers," both Jews (the "remnant") and Gentiles (those who now believe). This is what I have called a "universal horizon" -- if not a positive confession of universalism.

  Were the "all" just two categories as Calvin has it, it would already be fulfilled by the current "remnant" of Israel and Gentile believers. There would be no need for a further "mystery" moving it to a broader scale of fulfillment.