Love, Justice, Wisdom, Power - the Resurrection

by xelder 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    What will happen to the likes of Ghandi?

    Or even Mother Teresa who we now know from her letters, had doubts about serving God.

    That is why the judge of all things will be Jesus and through him God will judge people according to what is in their hearts.

    Many will profess to be Christians and say "lord, Lord" but Jesus will not know them just as many that have never "known" the Lord will be first chosen ( For the first shall be last and the last shall be first).

    See, God's grace falls on all of us, believers and non-believers alike, certainly the believers have the ability to receive Grace, which is suppose to give them a "leg up" on matters, but as we know, many believers do good deeds and good works and have faith for ulterior motives, for recompense and God knows this, he KNOWS US.

    There are many that, for a mirad of reason, don't know God and yet do more and love more than "God's children" and they do that for no other reason that for love and for doing the right thing, these people will be judge according to those acts and what is in their hearts also.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Chalam You can appeal to God's character if you like, which I guess is the purpose of the verses you quoted, but they don't really address the issue of "What happens to a mentally disabled person?" My point is, God is free to save all, some, or no "mentally disabled person", and still be just, because we are ALL sinners. Not simply because some could not understand, did not hear, or even rejected the gospel. God saves those whom He wishes, based on His good pleasure. Not based on any "type" of person. We are NOT saved by what we know (that's what JWs think). We are saved by whom (Christ) we believe in, by faith, and that faith is a gift from God. snowbird

    On one post, you said you're not a slave. How can you not be, if you're condemned?
    Because I've been "declared righteous", not based on any righteous acts of my own, but, faith, based on the righteousness of the works of Christ. Being "declared righteous" sets me free from the law.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Because I've been "declared righteous", not based on any righteous acts of my own, but, faith, based on the righteousness of the works of Christ. Being "declared righteous" sets me free from the law.

    Deputy Dog,

    That was pretty good thinking but I did want to say a bit more about this part since it looks like you are applying it personally. That is because this is a compound thought and it should be broken down and explained. The law under discussion here is the law of Moses, or the law covenant which was a major point of contention at the time. They were still keeping it instead of dropping it as a means of salvation. So in that case they were told and even warned that they were declared righteous (NWT) by means of faith or the works of Christ if you want to put it that way. This and many other texts make this point. Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Both they and we should be able to answer that question easily. And there are many texts that make this point like: Ga 2:18 Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. So now we have agreement with that part of your message. But being declared righteous is another way to say I am Justified or saved. And there is a little more to it than by simply not keeping the Law or making claims to such salvaton. James finally came to this conclusion when he said: James 2:24 NWT YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone. Why? Because words like faith or expressions like faith in Christ imply action. To believe means to act accordingly so that a demonstration of such belief becomes apparent. And to be a disciple means to perform the way Christ expects us perform as followers since he provided instructions to us. James now understood what Paul tried to teach him earlier and what others already knew like: 1 Tim 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. We do this he shows us on an individual basis as a Christian requiremnet, our responsibility, not on an organizational one of some sort. James failed in doing it his way before and was now setting things straight. There are other ways law is used in scripture and much more that can be said but I hope this helps. And there are other ways to gain salvation and gain entrance into the promised New Jerusalem by unbelievers but I just wanted to discuss this one a bit more. PSacramento made some excellent points as well in this thread. Thanks.

    Joseph

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Deputy Dog,

    That was pretty good thinking but I did want to say a bit more about this part since it looks like you are applying it personally.

    Speak for yourself Joe

    Romans 2:11

    For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

    Rom 3:21

    But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Meaning faith in the work of Christ, not any of my works

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    It may seem (and be) pointless to reply to a doctrinal question with personal experience or feelings, but that's just what I will be doing anyway, at least for a start. :)

    I can still remember one particular moment in my exit from the JWs long ago (I was still in France Bethel) when, suddenly, while talking rather freely with a couple of close friends, the whole idea of God making creatures to judge them struck me as utterly ludicrous and unbelievable. Oh yes it was "scriptural" all right, there were dozens of prooftexts to back it up, but I still found it laughable as an incredibly poor joke. I still believed in God -- just not that kind of God. And at the same time I was overwhelmed by much of what I was reading in the NT, the Gospel pictures of Jesus and christology presenting him as God's image or revelation in particular. To me there was definitely much more to the Christian God than this bogeyman picture, and they just couldn't stand together -- at least on the same plane.

    Later on I came in contact with all kinds of Evangelical Christians and theologians, Calvinists, Arminians, who all shared some belief in divine judgement and final reprobation (whether eternal punishment or annihilation) of at least some. But I was an instinctive universalist. I could no longer buy into a version of Christianity ending in a final dualism of "good" and "bad," "righteous" and "unrighteous," "elect" and "reprobate". To me the Pauline-Lutheran notion of salvation by faith not works destroyed the basis for a moral judgement -- a logical conclusion that Paul actually cringed at and tried to avoid, unfortunately he seemed to lose his rhetorical power at that point. And the Evangelical alternative -- condemning people formally "for their sins" but actually because of their non-belief made even poorer sense than strictly moral judgement to me: in effect it was making the criterion for judgement a shibboleth -- you can say the password correctly, you're saved, you don't, you're toast. Making it all a matter of election and predestination in the Augustinian-Calvinist way only added consistency to the absurdity. And btw there was a lot of NT stuff (Matthew, James) against this idea of judgement on belief.

    What I chose to read and love in the NT (I put it deliberately in subjective terms, thus admitting that my reading was certainly "biased") was quite different. I did find a "universalistic horizon" in many texts (Pauline, post-Pauline and Johannine in particular) to which "judgement" was second (or, more exactly perhaps, penultimate: God's "next-to-last word" so to say). And I also found that universalism, although repressed in official dogma, had been continually resurging in the history of Christian theology -- from the ancient apokatastasis doctrine of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa, to the modern "dialectical universalism" of Karl Barth or the Catholic version of Karl Rahner ("anonymous Christians," "hope for all"). Iow I don't think Christianity as a whole can really settle in a final dualism which is definitely too small for its ambition. It can't be ultimately satisfied until God is "all in all" as Paul put it. How some Christians can really accept and enjoy this idea, that they will be saved whereas others won't, even if they have many prooftexts to back it up, is beyond me. Sincerely.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    since it looks like you are applying it personally.

    Deputy Dog,

    Sorry, I did not know that you were also keeping the law. That is what I was talking about since your excerpts were dealing with it and you were applying them to yourself. This had nothing to do with judging you or your salvation. That is what Romans is dealing with as well, the correction of those being so informed about law on this one point. I think that you still do not understand the texts and there is not much that I can do about that but others needed to know. Faith in the work of Christ. It is not something that exists in a vacuum but something that is demonstrated every day. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Why would we be asked to do all this if it was only a simply belief? It is not simple but has its own set of commandments. It is not some fuzzy feelings that we prefer over our responsibilities to such a faith. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. Now Narkissos said: How some Christians can really accept and enjoy this idea, that they will be saved whereas others won't, even if they have many prooftexts to back it up, is beyond me. Well now we know your opinion and it is plain enough. It is beyond me as I am not the judge of such matters but am I still am obligated to discuss them. All I can do is to make known this possibility and what is said in them. You do not have to accept such texts, but others may actually care about them like the evil slave one or 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. It is what we do, what we teach that makes this difference that John was discussing whether we like it of not.

    Joseph

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Joe

    Deputy Dog,

    Sorry, I did not know that you were also keeping the law. That is what I was talking about since your excerpts were dealing with it and you were applying them to yourself. This had nothing to do with judging you or your salvation. That is what Romans is dealing with as well, the correction of those being so informed about law on this one point. I think that you still do not understand the texts and there is not much that I can do about that but others needed to know.

    I don't think you understand the text. I'm not going to adress it here. Why are you hyjacking this thread?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Narkissos,

    I couldn't agree more with what you said.

    :)

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Nark

    How some Christians can really accept and enjoy this idea, that they will be saved whereas others won't, even if they have many prooftexts to back it up, is beyond me. Sincerely.

    What makes you think Christians "enjoy" it?

    Isn't there someone (like Hitler) you think should be condemned?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    DD:

    What makes you think Christians "enjoy" it?

    I said some (seem to) do. I'm not speaking of the many Christians who suscribe more or less shamefully, 'against their own heart' as it were, to some sort of dualistic soteriology because it has been forced upon their mind with tons of "prooftexts" and (ab?)use of binary logic. I'm speaking of those who steadily champion it with an odd (to me) zeal against more merciful perspectives, who even glorify it as a motive of gratitude, appreciation and praise. The Aucilino talk about Armageddon and his "after that we'll love Jehovah even more" comes to mind as a caricatural JW version, but there are "orthodox" versions which I find equally disturbing, especially Calvin's. When I read Calvin I sense a delight in God's absolute freedom which somehow has to show in arbitrariness. (The relationship of necessity and freedom in that case being paradoxical in itself.) Enjoyment of freedom by proxy as it were, close to the kind of "perversions" psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan used to link with jouissance de l'Autre (I'm not sure how to translate: "pleasure of the Other?"). In less "totalitarian" (e.g. Arminian) versions the motive of resentment (which Nietzsche construed as the essential trait of Christianity) comes to the fore.

    Isn't there someone (like Hitler) you think should be condemned?

    That's a strange question (and an even stranger example) coming from a Calvinist. Wouldn't God's freedom to save whomever he chooses, Calvin style, be even better illustrated if Hitler (or, say, some devout Protestant Nazi official, there have been so many) was saved, and the people he contributed to kill reproved? What has final condemnation to do with relative ethics (aka "works") in the Calvinist system? Everyone should be condemned, Hitler no more than Gandhi or Anne Frank, right?

    That reminded me of a reply from Karl Barth I heard somewhere. Approximately: the problem with people like Hitler is not whether they will be saved, it is that they have to be stopped. Yes some people have to be stopped, fought, killed sometimes. But that's politics, not theology. Nobody escapes the solidarity of (relative) good and evil in history. The villains are part of the play just like the heroes and victims. And if anything is to be "redeemed" (I don't say it has to) everything has to.

    (To JosephMalik, if I chose to approach the issue by explaining how I felt about it, it doesn't follow that I don't care about what the texts say. Only I choose to approach them differently. I for one am not interested in making up a theological synthesis from a patchwork of Luke and John and Paul and James. I prefer to consider each text and author or school separately, and then step back to consider how each of them thought. With Paul in particular, I can't help noticing that his treatment of "judgement" is subordinated to a broader perspective of universal reconciliation, which ultimately accepts no exception. E.g. the conclusion of chapters 9--11 of Romans: "Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him, to receive a gift in return?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen." That's an example of what I called the "universalistic horizon".)

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