by xelder 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
PS
The problem here is this idea that all humans are God's children. That is not taught in the bible, it's read into it. All humans are His creation, but not all are adopted into his family.
Edited to add: Sorry Perry, I didn't see your post till after I posted.
DD and Perry,
I understand what you are saying, the issue becomes one of acceptance of God as an omniscient being, do you accept that God is all knowing?
That he knows everything that is in your heart and mind? all that you have done, gone through and have the potential to do?
If you accept that than ALL that has happened, from Adam's very creation was accounted for by God, it was not destined or pre-ordanined ( though some can arge that point - see "Book of Life"), but God was aware of the possibilities of Adma exerting his free will and the consequences there of, as such, God can't turn his back on all his creations, that would make him a cruel and uncaring creator, which go against be an all powerful being.
A being that is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing, all present, can't be "mean, cruel, unjust" or see his creations as enemies, there is no logic to that.
Now, I am not saying THAT is the case, only God knows for sure how he views each and every one of us, but the fact that only God, through Jesus, is judge is because only "they" are qualified to judge for only "they" know all that we do, feel, think, are.
PS
( though some can arge that point - see "Book of Life"),
The Book of Life makes my point.
DD,
You view it as pre-destination?
PS
Rev 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
DD,
I know that Rev 13: 8 referes to those whos names were not written in Jesus's Book of life from the very foundation of thr world, will worship the beast.
I also knows that the "book of life" is mentioned elsewhere, but I asked if you believe that equals that people are pre-destined and if yes, pre-destined for what?
PS
First I don't agree with your premises.
...but God was aware of the possibilities of Adma exerting his free will and the consequences there of, as such, God can't turn his back on all his creations, that would make him a cruel and uncaring creator, which go against be an all powerful being.
(see Romans 9)
I also knows that the "book of life" is mentioned elsewhere, but I asked if you believe that equals that people are pre-destined and if yes, pre-destined for what?
They (those in the book) are pre-destined to become children of God.
PS
I believe God created Adam so he would (not could) sin.
added: Yes, I know that's extrabiblical
DD,
So those whos names are written in the book of life are pre-destiend to become God's Children? no matter what?
Not sure what premise of mine you don't agree with, that God is all knowing?
I believe that God created Adam so that he WOULD sin? may I ask why?
I guess you are not a believer in free will? or you have a different view of free will perhaps ?
DD:
So the potter has no freedom over the clay (Romans 9)?
From a purely logical perspective, the freedom of a decision a priori has nothing to do with what is decided a posteriori. Whether God (even from a binary Calvinist perspective) decides to save no one or few or many or all, his decision is free. (God's freedom is probably the major lesson Barth retained from Calvin, at least in the first part of his career.)
From a scriptural perspective, the weakness of Calvin's exegesis of Romans 9 is that it reads the issue of individual and final/eternal election/reprobation into a text which is a theological account of the history of salvation -- where rejection is explicitly not final.
So what does Barth's view do with faith (as far as giving it to whom God pleases)? It would negate faith's role(as a gift) in the equation, wouldn't it?
Saving faith in the reformed tradition to which Barth belongs is objective rather than subjective, and collective -- given to the church -- rather than strictly individual (a perspective which is often lost in modern individualistic Evangelicalism). The church believes for the worlds' salvation so to say.
