Really, There Is A Lot To Learn About Your Faith

by AllTimeJeff 118 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  OnTheWayOut

  ...the ways and means we got to the bible, and subsequent religions based on it, were a direct result of one prevelant theological theory defeating another equally viable theological theory in the 3-5th centuries AD?

  The same theologies that WTS blasts now. Clearly, by their reckoning, the apostasy set in before the canon was selected for the NT. Also, they might be able to convince people that "Jehovah" was guiding the choosing of the canon. "Jehovah" protected His book, but forgot to protect His name. They cannot have their cake and eat it too.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  You made the above statement and have so far ignored my challenge as to how you could possibly know this. Of course, you are not required to respond to inquiries about your claims.... no one is required to do anything. But, I am curious as to what would prompt you to make such a claim....especially since it is so clear to you?

  I read books, some of which me and other posters have mentioned in this very thread.

  Perry, it is well known that there were many sources, many books and scrolls available, and that some were chosen, others rejected, based solely on politics.

  Perry, feel free to believe whatever you want to believe about the honesty of atheists. God clearly hasn't talked to them as you claim he has to you. Do you want to censure them for this? Would you like them to lie so that you can prove that atheists are liars? Or can we agree that god has in no way had any interaction with them?
• 

  SixofNine

  I see the very term atheist as anything but honest since by definition it requires an impossibility.

  Hiyas Perry. What is the impossibility in lacking belief in a deity (a)theism? Or for that matter, having a disbelief in all gods? I'm sure Dawkins could be backed into a corner and forced to admit that he can't "know" that there isn't a Flying Spaghetti Monster as well. But lack of belief/disbelief is not an impossibility, as I'm living proof.

  My guess would be that, if backed into that same corner, you would claim that you do "know" there is a god, and even know that said god is Jesus, via direct experience. That's fine, but obviously an atheist or agnostic can't go there.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Frankly, god hasn't talked to me. Jesus hasn't talked to me. Ditto Allah.

  However, Perry, I don't discount the existence of a higher power. There are things that can be interpreted, but that's all anyone can do at best. Interpret.

  Until "god" talks to me, and tells me to worship her, I have to be honest and say that god doesn't exist for me. Perry, as I always like to point out, you exist, you interact with me, and as such, there is far more evidence of you then a higher power with a personality. Why should I take your word that I should worship Jesus? Why can't Jesus do that?

  And why should you or anyone else be offended for investigating history, reading books, and finding and pointing out the truth as to the origins of such matters as the bible cannon, various theological points of view, etc?

  I am not saying anything that is wrong or dishonest. It's a simple matter of history.
• 

  Chalam

  Do you want to censure them for this? Would you like them to lie so that you can prove that atheists are liars?

  Anyhow, you know my views Jeff. I like the way Paul puts it

  Romans 1:20 (New International Version)

  20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

  Or David

  Psalm 19:1-6 (New International Version)

  1 The heavens declare the glory of God;

  the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

  2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
  night after night they display knowledge.

  3 There is no speech or language
  where their voice is not heard.

  4 Their voice goes out into all the earth,
  their words to the ends of the world.
  In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,

  5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
  like a champion rejoicing to run his course.

  6 It rises at one end of the heavens
  and makes its circuit to the other;
  nothing is hidden from its heat.

  Unfortunately, atheists will get more than the beautiful poetic four chapter rebuke God gave His servant Job after his friends misguided him.

  Job 38 Job 39 Job 40 Job 41

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Perry

  Perry, it is well known that there were many sources, many books and scrolls available, and that some were chosen, others rejected, based solely on politics.

  Even if you could prove this is true, it is totally irrelevant to your claim that all Christian faith today is different than Christian faith way back then. In fact
  Christian faith pre-dates the writings of the NT does it not? What came first, the writings or the faith? Surely you can see the fallacy in the support you proffer for your claim can't you?

  The Jews knew from their history that in accordance with the LAW, by placing their hands on an animal like a lamb for instance that their sins would be transferred onto the animal. Then, when his throat was slit and the animal died, the sin died with the sinless animal. The guiltless died in place of the guilty. Yet, the death sentence was still carried out according to the Law, only it circumvented the punishment for the sinner by the lamb taking it instead.

  The first Christians were Jews and did not need the NT to understand Jesus' claim to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Without any of the NT, people understood clearly that Jesus died in their place... the sinless in place of the sinner.

  This the object of Christians' faith. It is identical to those of the first Christians.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Stephen, I find the texts above at best a deists attempt at describing god, but surely you can agree that no personality or mandate can be ascribed by "creation".
• 

  Chalam

  The issue is are these texts God describing Himself?

  If so then jackpot!

  If not then the bible is falsehood and it is not worth the paper it is printed on.

  The bible is THE best seller of all time. Anyhow, read it, apply it, if it works then jackpot!

  The gold rush continues Matthew 13:44-45

  Some say it is fools gold without even digging. Other say they is no "gold in them hills". Still others are banking the stuff all day long Matthew 6:19-21

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Perry

  Hey there Six. You been on my mind lately. I may come to Dallas later this month.... something I want you to look at.

  Yes lack of belief is possible. That is different than saying there is no God...which is what many dictionaries define as atheist. As I see it there are only three possibilities for man:

  1. There is no God (Something from nothing)

  2. There is an evil God ie. one who doesn't care

  3. There is a God who will judge

  Christianity addresses the 3rd possibility and provides a solution that is both fair and acceptable to both God and man.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Perry, history shows that while there are concepts that have survived, the bible cannon, as well as theologies from Catholic to Protestant have changed. There were also books and scrolls, such as the Gospels of Judas and Mary Magdelane that were around at the same time that the cannon was finally decided upon.

  Thats history and compeletely factual. Thus when you say

  Even if you could prove this is true, it is totally irrelevant to your claim that all Christian faith today is different than Christian faith way back then.

  I would disagree and say that it is relevant. However, it is my view that you have a very (overly) simplistic view of what it means to be a Christian, which I do not begrudge you.

  My initial statement, which I will clarify for your benefit, was

  The idea is, we assume that the faith and religion we have now, is as it was way back then... Clearly, it isn't.

  In many ways, from how the laity has been treated since the 4th century until now, to the changes in Catholic theology (already commented on to some extent here), to how Christians worship has indeed changed since the time of the bible cannon. My point was and is, that Christianity as we call it today was very much a work in progress from the 1st through the 3rd centuries.

  Also, my point was not to make this about Christianity, as I stated

  My point is not for this to become personal at all. No attack on Christians or Christianity is implied or meant by me. However, I am just curious no matter where you stand on the atheist/theist meter, do you realize that the ways and means we got to the bible, and subsequent religions based on it, were a direct result of one prevelant theological theory defeating another equally viable theological theory in the 3-5th centuries AD?

  Believe what you want Perry, be my guest. I am sure of all people, you know that not even all Christians believe as you do. I also know that you disagree with the above statement, which I am more then comfortable with. I think that people who are curious as to how their belief system evolved and arrived to them will investigate these scholarly works and be able to make up their own mind.