"We All Lose Faith Sometimes...." (page 2)

AllTimeJeff

"We All Lose Faith Sometimes...." Thank god for that ....

I think it an interesting theoretical/hypothetical/sure to cause an argument thread about whether "god", if he exists, values the seeming blind faith of some, or the slow skepticism of others.

After all, "he" knows he hasn't been around. I don't think "he" would hold it against us to not believe, or to have doubt. He gave us a brain and a heart after all... For all we know, perhaps he looks down on credulity far more then doubt....

Not that I want to derail my own thread. (please god, do not let me derail my own thread....)

PSacramento

ATJ,

You say that God hasn't been around, what makes you say that?

AllTimeJeff

PSacramento

Well, he hasn't been around for me so far. However, if you know where he is, then I would kindly listen..... However, i would want to share, and that always seems to be a problem. Some people know god is "around". Others don't. God could make that very easy.

That is part of the point of my essay, that it is this lack of evidence that sways one in favor of an agnostic/atheistic point of view.

PSacramento

I think that we all would love to see signs, at least obvious signs woudl be great.

I just don't think God works that way, I mean, free will right?

What sign is "enough" for you? for me? for Johnny on the ledge about to kill himself?

What can God do to prove himself and NOT effect free will ?

AllTimeJeff

I think that we all would love to see signs, at least obvious signs woudl be great.

Not to mention fair and just. We deserve to not have games played with us.

I just don't think God works that way, I mean, free will right?

Well, this goes back to simple platitudes, but since free will is a common argument for god not interjecting himself, I will ask you one thing: Name one person in your life who made themselves manifest to you that took away your right and ability to act as a sentient being?

What sign is "enough" for you? for me? for Johnny on the ledge about to kill himself?

Right now, you, PSacramento, are more of a "real" person then "God" is, because you and I have had real, sustainable, evidentiary interaction. I am through with signs. For every Johnny by the way that gets saved off that ledge are 10 that jumped. Am I to assume god gave up on them? Judged them? Was indifferent? Again, why must I assume anything?

Free will is something we have. God popping in and saying hi once in a while won't affect that, accept possibly, for the better!

PSacramento

ATJ,

I disagree and this is why, me being real makes no difference in your life or the life of anyone else that I do not KNOW, but God proving himself real, does.

God popping up has a very real effect on free will, the fre will to believe in him for one, but more important, the free will to do what is right, believe what is right.

Many people do the right thing because they are afraid of God, something that one can argue, God doesn't want. Imagine then, if God was proven to be real, woudl people do the right thing BECUASE he was real or because it was the right thing?

God proving that he is real changes everything, wouldn't you agree?

AllTimeJeff

The question is, where has god proved himself real? The next question is, does that "reality" give license for him to be worshipped?

My answer to both is simply no. Or at least, not yet.

As for who does right or wrong, I will repeat a story that I love. Bono, lead singer of U2, was asked about why he did so many photo ops with all kinds of business and political leaders to get money for Africans in need, and if this equaled selling out. Bono said (quoting as best I can) "I don't think that the recipients of food and malaria nets care WHY they give money. They are just happy to have it provided."

Frankly, I think it first of all, a bogus premise that god isn't here so we can show what is in our hearts. If everyone did right because god was looking over their shoulder, that would be a welcome development for me.

It's like demanding a parent leave their house to their small kids so they can learn which ones are bullies, which ones are pyromaniacs, and which ones are the nice ones. Not the most responsible way to figure that one out imo.

Do you mean to tell me that god, the supposed "reader of hearts" can't figure out who is good and bad while he is in the "same room" so to speak?

Not a sound argument in my opinion.

PSacramento

ATJ,

A fair rebuttal my friend and one to which I agree with, certainly I would prefer a more "active" God, I won't lie to you.

If there is a God he most certainly KNOWS what is in our hearts and why, though one can argue that God knowing doesn't mean that WE know.

I don't have an argument that I can give you that can justify God not being more active in our lives, at least active to a point where whether he exists or not is a given, I wish I had but I don't.

That's ok though, God loves us both anyway LOL !

Perhaps, in the end, all we have is faith.

Someone once wrote ( not thatI agree) that it is best to live believing in God and die and find nothing, then to live in disbelief and die and find that there is a God.

I don't agree because I don't think that would matter to God, but for some, that is a good enough reason I guess.

AllTimeJeff

If there is a God he most certainly KNOWS what is in our hearts and why, though one can argue that God knowing doesn't mean that WE know.

Thanks for the give and take PSacramento. I esp agree with this statement, and actually have a small bit of faith in it, if you will. I am not afraid for god, if he exists, to know what I think, feel, and do.

The Almighty Homer

Valuable write up Jeff, thinking back on myself some 30 years ago leaving the JWS on my own I went searching for

a spiritual connection with god that I felt wasn't there with the JWS. I couldn't find it perhaps impart to the way the JWS

demeaned and denounced every other religion but their only devised one.

I'm quite sure I'm not alone on this matter, after this long period of time I've evolved into a humanist/atheist, completely cleansed of any spirituality,

there is free will contained in that as well.

"We All Lose Faith Sometimes...."

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